If innate, how, then, can we call it "punishment"? Why is it that the unveiled glory of God must be present in order for it to cause punishment?


God kept them supernaturally alive, contrary to the natural, innate effect of sinning (as you put it), so that they were able to accumulate sins. Otherwise, A&E would have died after committing the first sin, and none of us would have been born. So, if one sin is enough to cause them to die, how does God keep them alive long enough to suffer punishment for all the other sins they committed? Wouldn't they die after suffering the effects of the first sin?

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're asking here. You're considering some hypothetical case here, right? What's the hypothetical situation?



She doesn't say that Christ "died" the death that was ours, but that Christ "suffered" the death that was ours. I've never said that Christ "died" the second death. I've said He experienced it. EGW uses the word "suffered." Scripture uses the word "tasted."



DA 764 has the concept there. She talks about how Satan and his cohorts would perish if there were to reap the result of their sin.

There's no doubt that we owe our being alive to the grace of God. I found the way you put things to be quite negative. It was more the way you put it that I was disagreeing with than anything else.

If you put it this way, I would agree:

To the death of Christ we owe even our earthly life.

MM: What would have happened to A&E if Jesus had not implemented the POS the instant they sinned? Would they, according to your theory, have suffered guilt and shame in light of the truth and glory of God and then die? Or, would they have died the first death, been resurrected, judged, suffer symbolic fire, die the second death, and then be consumed with the earth in literal fire?


MM: Well said. I didn't realize we agreed on this point. Good to know.


MM: Okay. But I was more interested in knowing if she states how long sinners could suffer the natural consequences of sinning if unprotected by the POS. Is it instantly or seconds or minutes or hours or days?

If innate, how, then, can we call it "punishment"? Why is it that the unveiled glory of God must be present in order for it to cause punishment?


God kept them supernaturally alive, contrary to the natural, innate effect of sinning (as you put it), so that they were able to accumulate sins. Otherwise, A&E would have died after committing the first sin, and none of us would have been born. So, if one sin is enough to cause them to die, how does God keep them alive long enough to suffer punishment for all the other sins they committed? Wouldn't they die after suffering the effects of the first sin?

In this hypothetical, is God doing the same thing for Adam and Eve as He is for Satan? (i.e., Satan should, by all rights, have died right away, once he made his final decision not to repent, but God did not allow him to reap the consequences of his decision. Would God be acting similarly in regards to Adam and Eve?)



I'm a bit perplexed here. I've been making this point for years. If Christ had actually died the second death, He would still be dead, as that death is a death from which there is no resurrection. However, Christ "tasted" or experienced the second death, or, as EGW put it, He "suffered" it. If you agree with these points, then I'm glad as well (although surprised that you would have ever raised an objection in the first place, as I've never said anything different than this).



My understanding from her writings, and Scripture, is that we are dependent upon the grace of God to live all the time. How long it would take us to die without God's grace is not something I'm aware is commented on.



If you run a red light, and get hit by a car, you're being hit is punishment for your deed. If someone were hurt by your deeds, your guilty conscience would be further punishment, although these punishments were not imposed.



The glory of God is His character, and it is God's character, His goodness, that opens our eyes to see truth. It is this which leads us to repent (Rom. 2:3, 4). However, if one refuses to repent, eventually it leads to weeping and gnashing of teeth instead.

Without the light of truth, the conscience is not awakened.



The judgment brings to light all of our actions, not just some specific action. As the light is applied to the conscience, one becomes aware of all ones actions.

No.


The following quotes imply A&E would have died immediately had Jesus not implemented the POS.


TE: If you run a red light, and get hit by a car, you're being hit is punishment for your deed. If someone were hurt by your deeds, your guilty conscience would be further punishment, although these punishments were not imposed.

MM: Is this the normal use of the word "punishment"? Is cause and effect consequences "punishment" in the normal sense of the word?

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TE: The glory of God is His character, and it is God's character, His goodness, that opens our eyes to see truth. It is this which leads us to repent (Rom. 2:3, 4). However, if one refuses to repent, eventually it leads to weeping and gnashing of teeth instead. Without the light of truth, the conscience is not awakened.

MM: During the Great White throne judgment, after the second resurrection, are you saying the wicked can look at God's physical appearance and discern His character to the point it causes them to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness?

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TE: The judgment brings to light all of our actions, not just some specific action. As the light is applied to the conscience, one becomes aware of all ones actions.

MM: Being aware of every sin they've ever committed isn't the problem; they already know it, they've known it all along. The problem is when they are punished for their sins. One sin, in the presence of God, is enough to kill them. How do they survive long enough to be punished according to their sinfulness? Wouldn't they expire prematurely?

Regarding the quotes about Jesus' being their Savior, that's just what I was saying. We are dependent upon the grace of God every moment of our lives. However, the quotes do not cover how long it would take to die. I'm not aware of any quotes that do. I don't see why this would be important.

Regarding the normal use of the word "punishment," I think, in terms of Scripture, yes, that's normal. The punishment for sin is inherent in the sin itself.

The following quote sort of illustrates the idea:



Here's another one:



The law is given as a hedge to protect us from the consequences of breaking it. The evil consequences that come when the law is broken are punishments.



From "The Great Controversy:"



This is what I'm saying. By the way, we have an example of this in the cleansing of the temple, where "divinity flashed through humanity."



This seems pretty clearly not to be the case. Why would the statement say they become are conscious of every sin when the eye of Jesus looks upon them, if they already were before?



That is the punishment.



It doesn't say they're shown their sins one by one. It says they become conscious of every sin they've committed.

TE: However, the quotes do not cover how long it would take to die. I'm not aware of any quotes that do. I don't see why this would be important.

MM: Awhile ago you objected to the idea that A&E would have died immediately the instant they sinned if Jesus had not implemented the POS. You suggested they would have suffered at least a short time before succumbing to death. I was just curious if you knew of a passage to support your theory.

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TE: Regarding the normal use of the word "punishment," I think, in terms of Scripture, yes, that's normal. The punishment for sin is inherent in the sin itself.

MM: Seems to me there are other factors involved. The fact Jesus supernaturally prevents sinners from suffering and dying the second, eternal death the instant they sin - a new situation is created, a situation where sinners can live in spite of sinning. Thus, whatever the true relationship between sinning and suffering and death is, the POS prevents it from happening.

Because of the POS, the results of sinning are different than what they would have been. Now we sin and suffer and die a first death, things that would have been impossible had Jesus not implemented the POS.

Even after the second resurrection, however, the results of sinning will be kept in check until after the Great White Throne judgment is completed. Eventually, though, God will cease doing whatever it is He does that prevents sinners from suffering the normal results of sinning, and then they will suffer and die according to their sinfulness.

If punishment is inherent in the sin itself, as you have suggested, then they should succumb to it (whatever it is) the moment Jesus ceases keeping them supernaturally alive and preventing them from succumbing to it. But that is not what I hear you saying. I hear you saying more is required, that sin of itself is not enough, that a knowledge of the truth is needful in order for them to suffer and die.

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TE: Why would the statement say they become are conscious of every sin when the eye of Jesus looks upon them, if they already were before?

MM: Apparently, something has changed, right? People know what they have done. They can recall doing this or that. But for now the POS shields us from suffering the full consequences of sinning. But not so during the Great White Throne judgment. Could that account for the difference?

TE: However, the quotes do not cover how long it would take to die. I'm not aware of any quotes that do. I don't see why this would be important.

MM: Awhile ago you objected to the idea that A&E would have died immediately the instant they sinned if Jesus had not implemented the POS. You suggested they would have suffered at least a short time before succumbing to death. I was just curious if you knew of a passage to support your theory.



I agree.



Just for a time.



Agreed.



I would say that the Great White Throne judgment is a part of the results of sinning. EGW talks about Jesus looking at the wicked and their becoming aware of every sin. This not happening is part of what God prevents from happening.



I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. I think I agree with your first sentence (it's not completely clear to me, but based on what I think you're saying, I'd say I agree with it). When you speak of the sin of itself not being enough, if one considers the suffering which the wicked suffer to be due to their seeing their sin in its true light, which is an integral part of their suffering, then surely truth and light are a part of this process.

So, in and of itself sin is not enough to cause sinners to suffer and die, right?