Did EGW emphasize the TIMING of the entrance?

And if so how do you reconcile that with the TIMING of Jesus' entrance described in day of atonement language in vs. 24 and 25?




Now you are altering the type. You emphasized the time coinciding. But it clearly does not for the repentance. It happens in real time.

The corporate provision of sin was made for man in the historical events of the cross and the presentation of the sacrifice.

People experience repentance real time.

We agree that the judgment, based on the response to the gift, happens at the end.

The question I am asking is when does Hebrews indicate Jesus made purification for sins? At His ascension. When does it Describe Him in Day of Atonement language entering into His Father's presence? At His ascension. I do not see how an argument based on order of fulfillment, which as far as I know is never explicitly spelled out in the Scriptures, and doesn't add up in the Adventist scheme anyway, can overrule direct texts.

I do not think we can really adequately discuss every facet at once. But for now here is something I recently wrote up on the 2300 days day of atonement imagery. I didn't use my normal formatting just because it takes a long time to reformat for this board. I don't intend to get into a long discussion of it because it is not my biggest issue. If Hebrews says that Jesus entered in to begin the fulfillment of the DOA in His time then that seals the fate of the Adventist interpretation of the 2300 days.
---------------

Some years back Doukhan noted that the animals in Daniel chapter 8 are markedly different from those in chapter 7. All of the animals in chapter 7 are unclean animals--lion, bear, leapord, and the indescribable beast. But the animals in chapter 8 are clean, sacrificial animals--goat and ram. This underscores the sanctuary setting of chapter 8.

These animals also suggest two possible sources of imagery involving a restoring/cleansing of the sanctuary. I was reading in a fairly recent dissertation at Andrews when I came across this interesting information.

Here are the two possible sources of imagery:

1. Day of Atonement
The day of atonement sacrifices included rams and goats, and also a cleansing of the sanctuary:


Lev 16:11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
Lev 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
Lev 16:13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
Lev 16:14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
Lev 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
Lev 16:17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
Lev 16:18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
Lev 16:19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

Lev 16:5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
Lev 16:6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.

2. Hezekiah's Cleansing ritual

During the time of Hezekiah we also see a service that includes rams and goats and involves a cleansing of the temple.


2Ch 29:3 He in the first year of his reign, in the first month, opened the doors of the house of the LORD, and repaired them.
2Ch 29:4 And he brought in the priests and the Levites, and gathered them together into the east street,
2Ch 29:5 And said unto them, Hear me, ye Levites, sanctify now yourselves, and sanctify the house of the LORD God of your fathers, and carry forth the filthiness out of the holy place.
2Ch 29:6 For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
2Ch 29:7 Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.

2Ch 29:16 And the priests went into the inner part of the house of the LORD, to cleanse it, and brought out all the uncleanness that they found in the temple of the LORD into the court of the house of the LORD. And the Levites took it, to carry it out abroad into the brook Kidron.
2Ch 29:17 Now they began on the first day of the first month to sanctify, and on the eighth day of the month came they to the porch of the LORD: so they sanctified the house of the LORD in eight days; and in the sixteenth day of the first month they made an end.
2Ch 29:18 Then they went in to Hezekiah the king, and said, We have cleansed all the house of the LORD, and the altar of burnt offering, with all the vessels thereof, and the shewbread table, with all the vessels thereof.
2Ch 29:19 Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD.

2Ch 29:21 And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering for the kingdom, and for the sanctuary, and for Judah. And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them on the altar of the LORD.


Both involve the same animals and deal with cleansing of the temple. Interestingly both also involve OTHER animals besides the ram and goat. The ritual of the day of atonement also included a bull. The ritual of Hezekiah had lambs and bulls.


So the question is which is closer to the scene painted in Daniel 8? Which one is the likely source of imagery (if indeed either are)?

Here is the portion of the vision of Daniel 8 dealing particularly with the sanctuary and its cleansing:


Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


The defilement in Daniel 8 is due to an imposition by the little horn power. It casts down the place of the sanctuary and took away the daily sacrifice.

The question of Daniel 8:13 asks how long will all this defilement last? Daniel 14 gives a termination date, the sanctuary will be cleansed from the defilement of the little horn after 2300 days.

Now the cleansing in Lev. 16 was from sin, uncleaness and transgression. It was not a cleansing from pollution as such but a cleansing from sin. It was not due to an outside force defiling the temple as much as the sins of the people.

The cleansing in 2 Chronicles under Hezekiah also was as a result of the sins of idolatry and neglect, though primarily on the part of the priests and the kings. And it had a more tangible element. The temple was literally restored physically and defiling elements were cast out. In other words it had been polluted. The temple had been defiled by Ahaz who had cast out the vessels of the sanctuary. It had collected unclean elements (perhaps idols) that could be removed. It was then reconsecrated.

So in Daniel is the emphasis primarily on cleansing from the sins of the people or on cleansing from pollution and outside defilement?

The answer seems to be that the temple was defiled by the little horn. The cleansing of the temple in verse 14 is the response to the question--how long the trampling?, etc.

The story of Hezekiah seems to be a somewhat closer parallel to Daniel 8 than Leviticus 16 is. The defilement is the result of pollution, not the sins of the people. It is in this case from an outside source, the little horn, not the sins of God's people directly.

--------------

Besides the reference being to the sins of the little horn rather than all the people of God we also have the issue that the question of verse 23 said for how long the trampling etc. But the Adventist answer, 1844, does not make sense. The papacy was not stopped in 1844. Nor was the temple cleansed then, but would have STARTED to have been cleansed in the Adventist view. It made more sense when the Adventists under Miller expected 1844 to be the END of the world, and the cleansing of the world temple. Then 1844 would have really been the end of the little horn power and its activities. But it makes no sense in its current form. The little horn power is doing fine.

Nor do we have any real evidence that ANYTHING happened in 1844.
Prophecies are meant to show God's omniscience. It is demonstrated that there is none like God telling the end from the beginning. The Adventist prophecy of the 2300 days does not do that at all. There is no fulfillment according to the Adventist interpretation that can be examined. At best we have EGW saying that God ordained the movement, and intentionally obscured a mistake in the figures to bring it about. So the only evidence of the prophecies fulfillment according to the Adventist view is the mistaken Millerite movement.

Thanks for the response, Tall. There's a lot here, and you already have an involved conversation going, so I'll just comment on this last part.

Prophecy is not for the purpose of demonstrating God's omniscience. Scripture never makes this claim.



God says what will happen ahead of time so that when the thing happens that He says will happen, it will be seen that He did what He said He would. Prophecy demonstrates that God keeps His Word.

It also serves to identify things that are prophesied (e.g., the Messiah; little horn, to name a couple of things).

But nowhere does Scripture record God saying something like this: "I have prophesied these things ahead of time so that you will know that I know everything."

So the fact that the 2300 year prophecy does not do this is not significant.

The 2300 day prophecy is built on the historic view of prophecy, which was the dominant school of though until the Great Disappointment, when futurism became the popular school of thought. When considering prophecy, it's not simply considering the 2300 day prophecy that needs to be considered, but the whole school of thought in regards to prophecy (historical(?), futurism(?), preteritism(?)) that needs to be considered.

And of course, righteousness by faith comes into the picture as well, to correctly interpret Hebrews. So there's a lot to consider. Not an easy question.

[quote=Tom Ewall]

Thanks for the response, Tall. There's a lot here, and you already have an involved conversation going, so I'll just comment on this last part.

Prophecy is not for the purpose of demonstrating God's omniscience. Scripture never makes this claim.



My main point was stated in the next statement, which you seem to agree with. God knows the end from the beginning, and does set that up as a test. But there is no way from our viewpoint to look back on 1844 and see evidence of God knowing the end from the beginning.




A. We can look at historicism some time perhaps.

B. Historicism does not have to be wrong for our view of the 2300 days to be wrong. For instance we make an assumption that the prophecy begins at the same point as the 70 weeks. But the vision might be more in line with it beginning with the trampling of the little horn.

Yes, but notice what you are contending:
Passover – fulfilled in the order and timing of the type
Wavesheaf – fulfilled in the order and timing of the type
Pentecost – fulfilled in the order and timing of the type
Atonement – fulfilled out of the order and timing of the type

In fact, your view would make Atonement occur before Pentecost, for I think nobody believes Christ took ten days to arrive in heaven. But if Christ arrived in heaven much before Pentecost, and if the order and timing of fulfillment of the feasts is not important, why did Christ wait ten days to fulfill the antitype of Pentecost?


As I asked you before, do you believe that the fulfillment of Pentecost lasted one day, or that it began at a specific day? I believe in a Pentecostal era. Supernatural miracles and manifestations of the Spirit lasted several decades – in fact, seven decades if we consider the death of the apostle John as the end of this period. So, the duration of the antitypes is not restricted to a single day – either in the Spring feasts or in the Fall feasts.
By the way, when do you think the feast of Tabernacles was/will be fulfilled?


As I see it, Paul’s comparison/contrast with the Day of Atonement in v. 24 is not in the ACT OF ENTERING, but in THE PLACE ACCESSED, that is, the presence of God. Paul says Christ did not enter a sanctuary made by humans, but entered into the direct presence of God. Paul’s comparison/contrast with the Day of Atonement in vv. 25, 26 is, again, not in the ACT OF ENTERING, but in the OFFERING PRESENTED. While offerings had to be presented every year by earthly high priests, Christ offered Himself once for all and His blood is efficacious for ever.


There are many aspects involved here. The order of the feasts is just one of them. I see a punctiliar Day-of-Atonement antitype at Christ’s ascension as impossible, since the sins of God’s children in the Christian era hadn’t yet been committed and, therefore, could not have been blotted out. Besides, no scapegoat was banished to the wilderness in AD 31 (unless you believe the scapegoat is Christ, which I think is a view which presents more problems than advantages); neither do I see as a solution the placing of a lapse of 2000 years between the fulfillment of the first part of the type and the fulfillment of the scapegoat.
If you opt for a Day-of-Atonement antitype which began at ascension and is still going on, instead of 150+ years, you have a stretching of 2000 years to deal with.
By the way, which is your position - a punctiliar fulfillment or an ongoing fulfillment?


She says in a symbolic vision, as you quoted, that Jesus passed from one compartment to the other in 1844.


I’m not sure what you mean, but of course repentance is an attitude of the human heart, and only repentance can be a type of repentance.
The important point I'm pointing out is that the Bible is clear about the aspect of judgment on the Day of Atonement.


Of course until the last minute while atonement lasted people still had a chance to repent and be forgiven. Two things could be pointed out here. First, this judgment occurred while atonement lasted. And second, it was each person’s own attitude which determined his/her fate on that day. God simply recognized the person’s choice.


At His ascension? I apply these words of Paul to the cross.


The essence of the Day of Atonement was not just entering into God's presence. It was entering God's presence in order to cleanse the sanctuary. Evidently, if Christ had left the presence of God to come to earth, He would come back to the presence of God at His ascension, sanctuary or no sanctuary. The question is, Did Christ enter into the presence of God at His ascension in order to cleanse the sanctuary?

The purpose of prophecy is not to establish that God knows the end from the beginning, but that He will do what He says He will do. We have all sorts of prophecies which we have seen fulfilled, so we have every reason to believe that God is trustworthy. Since we know God is trustworthy, based on what we've seen in many other prophecies, which *can* be verified, we can trust that in the 2300 day prophecy that He would do what He said He would here as well.

Your reasoning seems to be that God can not prophecy about anything that He is doing in heaven, because we have know way of verifying that prophecy. But again, His purpose in the prophecy could simply be to tell us what He is going to do. It doesn't have to be verifiable, as, if this were a necessary condition, God could never prophecy about anything He is doing in heaven.

Regarding your point about the 2300 day prophecy need not be interpreted as SDA's interpret it, but historicism could still be the correct framework for prophecy, I agree with this point. Usually people who make the arguments you are making in regards to Hebrews are futurists, but I have no reason to believe that logically this need be the case. So I agree with you that, given your understanding of Hebrews, your suggested alternative interpretation regarding the little horn is a viable possibility.

God would not give information of what happens in Heaven without a purpose. So, what is the purpose?

The purpose is to prepare for the coming of Christ.

Is it accomplishing its purpose?

The little horn was the cause of the defilement. The cleansing would be dealing with that defilement. The 2300 days was to bring an end to its work. The Adventist view simply does not qualify. Instead of showing how the little horn power came to an end and the defilement it caused was cleansed it reads in the day of atonement which dealt not with external defilement of the sanctuary but cleansing from the sins of all of God's people.