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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#96360
03/06/08 04:16 PM
03/06/08 04:16 PM
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All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1} This statement does not necessarily mean that Jesus demonstrated everything there is to know about God. It simply says everything we need to know or can know of God was revealed in the life and character of Jesus. This statement leaves room for things about God that are hard to understand, that Jesus chose not to reveal because we cannot comprehend it at this time. Some of these things Jesus said the Holy Spirit would make clear after His departure. But other things will not be made clear until well into eternity. John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you. 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show [it] unto you. 1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 2 Peter 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Perhaps one of those things about God that Jesus chose not to reveal while He was here is the fact God withdraws His protection and gives evil angels permission to destroy sinners when circumstances force Him. It is called His strange act". Isaiah 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as [in] mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as [in] the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. [Isaiah 28:21 quoted] To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act.... By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}
The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. [Isaiah 28:21 quoted] To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act.... While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. {PP 628.1} Apparently, we do not need to understand, not can we understand, the "strange act" of God as evidenced by the fact Jesus chose not to reveal this aspect of God's character and kingdom.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#96364
03/06/08 04:34 PM
03/06/08 04:34 PM
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This statement does not necessarily mean that Jesus demonstrated everything there is to know about God. It simply says everything we need to know or can know of God was revealed in the life and character of Jesus. I'll respond to the rest of your post later, as I have time, but for now, what's the difference between "demonstrate" and "reveal"?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#96398
03/06/08 10:54 PM
03/06/08 10:54 PM
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As I used them above they mean the same thing. I mean it as opposed to Jesus merely talking about it (i.e., in the future He will withdraw His protection and give evil angels permission to destroy Jews in Jerusalem).
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#96436
03/07/08 01:42 AM
03/07/08 01:42 AM
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If "demonstrate" means the same thing as "reveal" then what you said becomes this: This statement does not necessarily mean that Jesus revealed everything there is to know about God. It simply says everything we need to know or can know of God was revealed in the life and character of Jesus. This doesn't seem to make any sense. In the above, you're saying that the statement that Jesus revealed everything there is to know about God does not necessarily mean that Jesus revealed everything there is to know about God.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#96442
03/07/08 04:26 AM
03/07/08 04:26 AM
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This statement leaves room for things about God that are hard to understand, that Jesus chose not to reveal because we cannot comprehend it at this time. Some of these things Jesus said the Holy Spirit would make clear after His departure. But other things will not be made clear until well into eternity. I'm not seeing this. That statement says that "all" that man needs to know, or can know, of God was revealed. It doesn't say "all we can know of God, except things that are difficult to understand." How are you reading into the statement a qualification? It seems as unqualified as it could possibly be. Apparently, we do not need to understand, not can we understand, the "strange act" of God as evidenced by the fact Jesus chose not to reveal this aspect of God's character and kingdom. I would argue the reverse, which is that since all that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of Jesus, then He must have revealed this. Either that, or what you're suggesting is not something we can know of God. Really, the statement "all" man can know of God was revealed by the life and character of His Son, doesn't allow for any other interpretation, right? What you're suggesting would make "all" not mean "all," but "some" or "much."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#96455
03/07/08 02:10 PM
03/07/08 02:10 PM
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In the Bible, the word "all" is often qualified. I'm sure you know what I mean. In the case of her statement in 8T 286 I think it is possible that "all" refers to those things we can, in our present state of dullness, grasp and comprehend. But it cannot possibly refer to everything there is to know about God for the simple reason eternity isn't long enough to know everything about God.
There is too much to know about God for Jesus to have demonstrated "all" of it during His short sojourn here. Certainly you can agree with this insight. She said Jesus revealed everything we "need" to know, which is also everything we "can" know at this time. Of course, everything we "can" know is everything we "need" to know in order to get saved and to stay saved, that is, to be like Jesus. Whatever Jesus did not demonstrate while here in the flesh was, evidently, not needful to know for salvation.
Remember, Jesus said, I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. So, what did He leave unsaid, unrevealed? Obviously there were certain things Jesus could not demonstrate while here in the flesh because the disciples, and we, were/are unable to bear it, unable to grasp it. Could it be that one of those things is the "strange act" of God spoken of in the Bible, and demonstrated throughout the OT, and prophesied in the NT?
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#96462
03/07/08 04:19 PM
03/07/08 04:19 PM
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I don't dispute the fact that we will continually be learning new things about God throughout eternity, but I believe whatever we learn was revealed in the life and character of Christ, as the EGW statement says.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#96560
03/08/08 11:16 PM
03/08/08 11:16 PM
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Tom, I find it hard to believe that you, of all people, are content to believe that Jesus demonstrated (revealed) everything there is to know about God. What about Jesus' statement, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now."
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#96565
03/09/08 12:03 AM
03/09/08 12:03 AM
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Active Member 2012
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I've quoted the statement often from Ellen White. I'll trying quoting the same thought from a different author, and see if that makes sense to you. Paul says, "in [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him God was pleased to reconcil to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross" (Col 1:19-20) Whereas certain false teachers of his day were depicting Christ as one aspect of the display of God's fullness, Paul insists, as we have alread seen, that "the whole fullness of deity" dwells in Christ (Col 2:9). No aspect of God's fullness was withheld from the incarnation. All we can and need to know about God is found in Christ, for God fully dwells in and is revealed in Christ. And the cerntral purpose of this complete indwelling was to "reconcile to Himself all things": to reverse the separation of the Fall and to consummate the purpose of creation by dying on the cross. (Is God to Blame, by Greg Boyd, emphasis mine). I find it amazing that a non-SDA can see these things, but perhaps I shouldn't be, as these thoughts are all in Scripture. I just hadn't seen anyone not familiar with the Spirit of Prophecy present them before. Perhaps this explanation makes sense?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#96600
03/09/08 04:36 PM
03/09/08 04:36 PM
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OP
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Yes, it is interesting to find the same insight expressed by a non-SDA author. I hope you realize I am not arguing against it. It's just that I understand it differently than you do.
But let's see if we can move on. Maybe an example of Jesus demonstrating the aspect of God in question will settle the matter. Do you know of one?
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