Yes, I think you're missing something. I think what you're missing is that the normal situation is that God the normal course of events is that God's glory is manifest, and not veiled. The DA 764 quote points out that the wicked so deform their own character that they can not stand to be in the presence of God. This should make it so clear as to be beyond misunderstanding that death results as a result of the decision of the wicked. She says this like 6 time in the span of one paragraph! I cannot understand why someone would want to blame God for what the wicked do to themselves.



Yes, 6 times in the space of one paragraph she points out that the death of the wicked is due to their own decisions, and she specifically points out, in (1), that their death is not due to something God is doing to them.

Some polynesian translations unless I have been missinformed.

Thomas, before I believe it, I need to see it. Considering what the Bible says about pigs, I cannot imagine translators making the decision to substitute a pig for a lamb to symbolize Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross. I must admit, though, that I am surprised every time I read the "look and live" story (where a fiery, brazen serpent symbolizes Jesus).

Tom, I totally agree sinners will suffer and die the second death in the lake of fire because they rejected Jesus, because they refused to accept Him as their personal Savior. God doesn't just wake up, show up, and decide, Hey, I feel like killing sinners today, these will do.

There is a reason He punishes them according to their sinfulness and then destroys them in the lake of fire. And that reason is plain and simple - They refused and rejected Jesus.

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

They are worthy of many stripes, worthy of double punishment. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The idea that sin, in and of itself, causes sinners to suffer and die the second death in the lake of fire is unbiblical. The testimony of God is clear - The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. For our God is a consuming fire.

Sinners suffer and die the second death in the lake of fire as a result of an interaction between their sins and the glory of God. It is a deadly combination. "But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them." (DA 107)

The first part of your post presents the idea that the death of the wicked is due to an arbitrary (i.e. imposed) act of power on the part of God. But the paragraph in DA 764 I quoted states 6 times in that one paragraph that this is not the case, that the death of the wicked is a result of their own decisions. They so deform their characters that they cannot even stand to be in the presence of God, the kindest, humblest, gentlest being in the universe. Such is the power of sin to destroy.

In the quote from DA 107, just a little below where you quoted from, she says that the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked. The glory of God is His character. This is bringing out the same point that she brought out in DA 764, which is that the wicked have so wrecked themselves by sin that they cannot even bear to be in His presence. That there death is due to something they have done is evident by the fact that the glory of God gives life to the righteous. The same thing that gives life to one group results in the death of another. The is due to sin, not to God's acting different towards one group than the other.

I agree that the suffering and death sinners experience is not an arbitrary act on God's part. Being sinful and being in the presence of God's unveiled glory causes suffering and death. The two are simply, naturally incompatible.

God doesn't do something extra in order for His unveiled glory to cause sinners to suffer and die. That's just what happens when unsaved sinners are within physical proximity of the unveiled glory of God.

But I hear you saying it has more to do with how understanding the truth, the character of God, how seeing their sins as God sees them - that it is these things that causes them to suffer emotionally, spiritually and to eventually die the second death.

I think it's more of a mental thing than a physical thing (which is not to deny that a physical aspect may also be involved). So it's not so much that sinners are in physical proximity to God as that they are in mental proximity. As God's character is revealed to them, they see themselves as they really are, and they can't stand that.

Ty Gibson talks about this in his book "See With New Eyes" if you have that. If you don't, I can see if I can find the passage I'm thinking of. There's actually a chapter about it, talking about how God looks in the mirror, something like that. At any rate, I think Ty's ideas make sense.

I'm more interested in your ideas than Ty's. So, are you saying God doesn't have to be physically present in order for His unveiled glory to mentally consume them with their sins?

They're no different, in regards to this question. He's just more eloquent than I am.



No, I'm saying that God's being physically present isn't the most important factor. By the way, how can God not be physically present somewhere?

If God is physically present everywhere, how does He veil His glory? How does He prevent it from consuming us with our sins now?

Also, how does He prevent the truth from consuming us with our sins now?