Which problem is due to poison, not breathing. Similarly, man's problem is sin, not God.

Sinners are able to live forever if God were to continue veiling His glory, truth, goodness. In your analogy they cannot live for ever holding their breath.

EW 51
I was pointed to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree and were driven from the garden, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, lest they should partake of its fruit and be immortal sinners. The tree of life was to perpetuate immortality. I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed the flaming sword and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer, "Not one of Adam's family has passed that flaming sword and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner. The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2}

Sinners can't even live for a microsecond without God's giving them life.



So, if anything, my analogy is lacking because it *understates* the situation. One could hold one's breath, and keep from dying for a couple of minutes. But, apart from God's activity in giving us life, we couldn't even exist a microsecond. So you're statement that sinners could live forever is off by forever.

Clearly what you meant to say is that if God were to continue to give sinners life, and simultaneously veil His glory, truth and goodness, then sinners could live forever. But since sin is misery, for God to do this would be simply to consign sinners to an eternal hell.

Tom, you seem to have not noticed the quote I posted. Here it is again (plus others):

EW 51
I was pointed to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree and were driven from the garden, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, lest they should partake of its fruit and be immortal sinners. The tree of life was to perpetuate immortality. I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed the flaming sword and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer, "Not one of Adam's family has passed that flaming sword and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner. The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2}

GC 533
Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

PP 60
In order to possess an endless existence, man must continue to partake of the tree of life. Deprived of this, his vitality would gradually diminish until life should become extinct. It was Satan's plan that Adam and Eve should by disobedience incur God's displeasure; and then, if they failed to obtain forgiveness, he hoped that they would eat of the tree of life, and thus perpetuate an existence of sin and misery. But after man's fall, holy angels were immediately commissioned to guard the tree of life. Around these angels flashed beams of light having the appearance of a glittering sword. None of the family of Adam were permitted to pass the barrier to partake of the life-giving fruit; hence there is not an immortal sinner. {PP 60.3}

She plainly says, and the angel confirms it, that the reason there is not an immortal sinner is due to the fact sinners do not have access to the tree of life. That God sustains their life, too, is not the issue. He implemented the plan of salvation, so of course He sustains their life; albeit, it's a life that gradually ends because the vital organs decay and fail. Also, another reason they are able to live is because God veils His glory, truth, goodness, which would otherwise cause them to suffer and die.

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Your analogy doesn't work for me. It doesn't establish the point you wish to make. Try again.

I don't see how this has anything to do with what I wrote. We could not exist for a moment without God's giving us life. You agree with this, don't you?

Or ability to live is not something we have inherent in ourselves. Our hearts beat by the power of God. We live and move and have our being in Him.

If God were to sleep, even for a moment, we would die.

She plainly says, and the angel confirms it, that the reason there is not an immortal sinner is due to the fact sinners do not have access to the tree of life. That God sustains their life, too, is not the issue. He implemented the plan of salvation, so of course He sustains their life; albeit, it's a life that gradually ends because the vital organs decay and fail. Also, another reason they are able to live is because God veils His glory, truth, goodness, which would otherwise cause them to suffer and die.

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Your analogy doesn't work for me. It doesn't establish the point you wish to make. Try again.

Sin causes death, MM. Both Scripture and EGW teach this, over and over again. Not "sin + God" causes death, but sin causes death.

I'm sure you've heard the adage, "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

I've presented a tremendous amount of evidence that it is sin that causes death. I can't force you to believe this.

Tom, whether or not you're view is right or mine has nothing to do with the adage you posted. If you think this is an issue then it might explain some of our differences.

Also, if sin, all by itself, is what causes resurrected sinners to suffer according to their sinfulness and to die the second death, why, then, do you keep quoting passages which say otherwise? On more than one occasion you have testified that it is the glory (truth, goodness) of God that consumes and destroys sinners with their sins in the lake of fire.

As I've explained quite a number of times now, there is no reason why simply being in God's goodness should hurt anybody. This is unnatural. Just like there's no reason that breathing should kill anyone. But if you put poison in the air, then breathing can cause someone to die. But the reason for their death is the poison, not their breathing.

Similarly, the wicked so place themselves out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. In this one paragraph (DA 764), no less than 6 times, does the Spirit of Prophecy explain that the death of the wicked is due to what they themselves have done, and not due to something God is doing to them.

Notice the phrasing please: "the wicked so place themselves ..." There is absolutely no reason why being in God's presence should cause anyone to die.

Again, as I've pointed out many times, in DA 108, we are told that the same thing which causes the death of the wicked *gives life* to the righteous. So it is not God's acting differently to one group than to another which causes the death of the wicked, but what they have done to themselves. They have imbibed poison, and that poison kills them. Not breathing, but poison.

TE: But if you put poison in the air, then breathing can cause someone to die. But the reason for their death is the poison, not their breathing.

MM: Tom, this analogy fails to support your theory. How about this one: Sunshine warms and gladdens the soul, but if we stand too close it will consume us to death.

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TE: So it is not God's acting differently to one group than to another which causes the death of the wicked, but what they have done to themselves.

MM: Even at birth, before we are consciously aware we are sinning, we are incapable of surviving the undiluted glory of God. Not even Jesus, while dwelling in sinful flesh, was able to survive the undiluted glory of God.