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Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #96714
03/11/08 04:36 PM
03/11/08 04:36 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Tom, I am sorry for the confusion. It never pays to leave out the most important words - in Christ. Thank you for pointing it out.


You're welcome.

 Quote:
What do you think "in Christ, we are perfect" means?


I think it means something like what EGW expresses here:

 Quote:
Jesus is perfect. Christ's righteousness is imputed unto them, and He will say, "Take away the filthy garments from him and clothe him with change of raiment." Jesus makes up for our unavoidable deficiencies. Where Christians are faithful to each other, true and loyal to the Captain of the Lord's host, never betraying trusts into the enemy's hands, they will be transformed into Christ's character. Jesus will abide in their hearts by faith.--Letter 17a, 1891


 Quote:
Do you have in mind justification or sanctification or both?


I don't think one can separate justification from sanctification. To speak of theological concepts, it makes it handy to have two words, but in our experience, sanctification cannot be separated from justification. Both justification and sanctification are by faith. Sanctification is simply the results of justification as one progresses through life.

So I think both are included.

 Quote:
In other words, in Christ are we perfect in reality; or, are we only perfect on paper? That is, in Christ are we perfect in the intrinsic sense or only in the forensic sense or both?


I think there is a perfection in reality which is reflected in that the law is written in heart. This means that it is one's inclination to love God, and to love one's neighbor, which is what the law requires.

However, there is still imperfection in that there are things we don't know. I think by far our biggest problems lie with our ignorance with regards to God's character, which causes all sorts of imperfection in us, to which we are totally blind.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Tom] #96732
03/11/08 11:18 PM
03/11/08 11:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thank you for answering my questions. If being perfect in Christ includes being totally blind to all sorts of imperfections, is it safe to say being perfect in Christ means being like Jesus sometimes and being like Satan sometimes?

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #96741
03/11/08 11:46 PM
03/11/08 11:46 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Possibly it may be the case that one thinks one is perfect in Christ without actually being perfect in Christ.

The seriousness of imperfections has to do with the willingness to deal with them when the truth is pointed out by the Holy Spirit. Everyone has imperfections, but the true follower of Christ will respond to the Holy Spirit when these imperfections are pointed out.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Tom] #96748
03/12/08 12:20 AM
03/12/08 12:20 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: Possibly it may be the case that one thinks one is perfect in Christ without actually being perfect in Christ.

MM: If, as you say, being perfect in Christ includes being totally blind to all sorts of imperfections - no one is "actually" perfect in Christ, right?

---

TE: The seriousness of imperfections has to do with the willingness to deal with them when the truth is pointed out by the Holy Spirit. Everyone has imperfections, but the true follower of Christ will respond to the Holy Spirit when these imperfections are pointed out.

MM: Questions:

1. Are you saying that the reason we aren't aware of certain imperfections is because the Holy Spirit hasn't pointed them out to us yet?

2. Is the reason why the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed them to us due to the fact we aren't willing to deal with them yet?

3. Is it because we would we choose to grieve the Holy Spirit instead of crucifying them?

4. Are these imperfections obvious to the people around us?

5. Do they misrepresent Christ to the people around us?

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #96752
03/12/08 12:35 AM
03/12/08 12:35 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
TE: Possibly it may be the case that one thinks one is perfect in Christ without actually being perfect in Christ.

MM: If, as you say, being perfect in Christ includes being totally blind to all sorts of imperfections - no one is "actually" perfect in Christ, right?


First of all, that's not what I actually said. Secondly, let's assume I did say that, and see what the logic of things would be. You wrote, "If being perfect in Christ includes being totally blind to all sorts of imperfections, then no one is 'actually' perfect in Christ."

Why not? If being in Christ includes being blind to certain imperfections, then one can be blind to these imperfections and still be perfect in Christ, by definition.

Anyway, that's just a point in logic. To understand the phrase "perfect in Christ," let's consider what EGW wrote:

 Quote:
Now, Martha, do not look to yourself but away to Jesus. Talk of His love, talk of His goodness, talk of His power, for He will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able to bear. But in Christ is our righteousness. Jesus makes up our deficiencies because He sees we cannot do it ourselves. While praying for you I see a soft light encompassing a hand stretched out to save you. God's words are our credentials. We stand upon them. (Daughter of God 146)


This was a nice quote, I thought, a different one than I presented before. Deficiencies means the same thing as imperfections, right?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Tom] #96754
03/12/08 12:40 AM
03/12/08 12:40 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
TE: The seriousness of imperfections has to do with the willingness to deal with them when the truth is pointed out by the Holy Spirit. Everyone has imperfections, but the true follower of Christ will respond to the Holy Spirit when these imperfections are pointed out.

MM: Questions:

1. Are you saying that the reason we aren't aware of certain imperfections is because the Holy Spirit hasn't pointed them out to us yet?


That's possible. We couldn't bear it if He pointed them all out to us at once.

 Quote:
2. Is the reason why the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed them to us due to the fact we aren't willing to deal with them yet?


No, not necessarily.

 Quote:
3. Is it because we would we choose to grieve the Holy Spirit instead of crucifying them?


No.

 Quote:
4. Are these imperfections obvious to the people around us?


It depends on the person.

 Quote:
5. Do they misrepresent Christ to the people around us?


It depends on what you mean by "misrepresent Christ." It's certainly possible that if we have a wrong idea about God's character, and share that wrong idea with others, that this would be "misrepresenting Christ" in some manner. However, this wouldn't mean that such a one couldn't be used by the Holy Spirit to bring the other person to Christ. If one is unaware of one's blindness, then, to quote the angel speaking to Ellen White, "there is no sin."

So the short answer is, I think there's a lot of things to take into account, and we can be thankful that God is gracious, and does take all these things into account.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Tom] #96757
03/12/08 12:45 AM
03/12/08 12:45 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: You wrote, "If being perfect in Christ includes being totally blind to all sorts of imperfections, then no one is 'actually' perfect in Christ."

Why not? If being in Christ includes being blind to certain imperfections, then one can be blind to these imperfections and still be perfect in Christ, by definition.

MM: But no one is "actually" (in reality) perfect, right? We are actually, in reality, imperfect.

---

TE: Deficiencies means the same thing as imperfections, right?

MM: I'm not sure. Either way, is it referring to unknown sinful habits, behaviors that offend people around us, that misrepresent Jesus, that bing reproach upon the cause and church of Christ?

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #96759
03/12/08 12:54 AM
03/12/08 12:54 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
3. Is it because we would we choose to grieve the Holy Spirit instead of crucifying them?

TE: No.

MM: Will the Holy Spirit reveal them to us even if He knows it will cause us to commit the unpardonable sin?

4. Are these imperfections obvious to the people around us?

TE: It depends on the person.

MM: The person who is unaware of his imperfection? Or, the people aware of his imperfection?

5. Do they misrepresent Christ to the people around us?

TE: It depends on what you mean by "misrepresent Christ." It's certainly possible that if we have a wrong idea about God's character, and share that wrong idea with others, that this would be "misrepresenting Christ" in some manner. However, this wouldn't mean that such a one couldn't be used by the Holy Spirit to bring the other person to Christ. If one is unaware of one's blindness, then, to quote the angel speaking to Ellen White, "there is no sin."

MM: I had in mind behaviors, not ideas. Does it apply to objectionable behaviors, too?

TE: So the short answer is, I think there's a lot of things to take into account, and we can be thankful that God is gracious, and does take all these things into account.

MM: Amen!

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #96760
03/12/08 12:55 AM
03/12/08 12:55 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
TE: You wrote, "If being perfect in Christ includes being totally blind to all sorts of imperfections, then no one is 'actually' perfect in Christ."

Why not? If being in Christ includes being blind to certain imperfections, then one can be blind to these imperfections and still be perfect in Christ, by definition.

MM: But no one is "actually" (in reality) perfect, right? We are actually, in reality, imperfect.


We are, in reality, perfect in Christ. Our perfection in Christ does not depend upon our being perfect, but on His being perfect. That's why it is called "perfect in Christ." If it were simply a matter of our being perfect, then it would just be called "perfect," and your oversight of a couple of posts ago would be perfectly (pardon the pun) fine.

 Quote:
TE: Deficiencies means the same thing as imperfections, right?

MM: I'm not sure. Either way, is it referring to unknown sinful habits, behaviors that offend people around us, that misrepresent Jesus, that bing reproach upon the cause and church of Christ?


Read the quotes where she says that Christ makes up for our deficiencies. What do you think it means? In the letter to Martha, it seemed to be including something that was upsetting Martha.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Tom] #96777
03/12/08 02:16 PM
03/12/08 02:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Being perfect "in Christ" includes being perfect on paper (forensic righteousness; imputed righteousness) and being perfect in behavior (intrinsic righteousness; imparted righteousness). God sees us as if we had never sinned and He sees us not sinning now. In Christ we are saved from our past sins and we are saved from sinning now. Both are realities in Christ.

But these things are only true while we are abiding in Jesus, while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, while we are growing in grace, while we are maturing in the fruits of Spirit, while we are imitating the sinless example of Jesus.

Regarding our "unavoidable deficiencies" the following quotes make me think she is talking about weaknesses rather than sinful, cultivated habits of sinning that should have been crucified when they were supposedly born again or have been resurrected since they were crucified and buried with the old man.

 Quote:
In order to purify and refine our characters, we need the grace given us of Christ that will enable us to see and correct our deficiencies and improve that which is excellent in our characters. {CG 164.2}

Self-knowledge leads to humility and to trust in God, but it does not take the place of efforts for self-improvement. He who realizes his own deficiencies will spare no pains to reach the highest possible standard of physical, mental, and moral excellence. {CT 67.1}

The Lord God of heaven will not supply the deficiencies that result from mental and spiritual indolence. {FE 374.1}

Constantly God is laboring to make up man's deficiencies. Even repentance is brought about through the application of grace. The natural heart feels no need of repentance…. Faith, too, is the gift of God. {HP 221}

God will take men who do not appear to be so richly endowed, who have not large self-confidence, and He will make the weak strong, because they trust in Him to do for them that which they cannot do for themselves. God will accept the wholehearted service, and will Himself make up the deficiencies. {MH 150.3}

Jesus is perfect. Christ's righteousness is imputed unto them, and He will say, "Take away the filthy garments from him and clothe him with change of raiment." Jesus makes up for our unavoidable deficiencies. Where Christians are faithful to each other, true and loyal to the Captain of the Lord's host, never betraying trusts into the enemy's hands, they will be transformed into Christ's character. Jesus will abide in their hearts by faith. {3SM 196.1}

Let none of our brethren imagine that they are doing God's service in presenting the deficiencies of men who have done good, grand, acceptable work in laboring to unfold the message of mercy to fallen men, for the salvation of perishing souls. Suppose that these brethren have weak traits of character which they have inherited from their deficient ancestors, shall these deficiencies be hunted up and made prominent? {3SM 342.2}

All of us are weak in certain areas and aspects of life. But these weaknesses are not necessarily sinful behaviors. Instead, it might mean we are not as gifted as someone else is in, for example, teaching doctrines from the Bible, or preaching from the pulpit, or visiting at the hospital.

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