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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#97050
03/17/08 07:19 PM
03/17/08 07:19 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Again, do you think J&W fall under the same authoritative category as Moses, David, Paul, John, and Ellen?
The question for you Mike is, why would you think there was a difference between J&W compared with the others? The same argument you use to join Ellen to the others on the list, on what foundations would you not use that argument on J&W aswell? Personally, I wonder if J&W would not be better compared with Balaam, son of Beor.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: vastergotland]
#97057
03/17/08 11:15 PM
03/17/08 11:15 PM
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Thomas, J&W never claimed to have the gift of prophecy. Ellen white did. Also, I'm not sure I understand your last statement. J&W and Balaam?
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#97064
03/18/08 12:46 AM
03/18/08 12:46 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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TE: I don't think catergorizing those whom God uses is the important thing.
MM: Apparently it is important to God. Authority is needful. Truth is it's own authority. God doesn't want us to serve Him on the basis of His authority, but because we are convinced He is right. This is why Jesus, on the road to Emaus, taught the disciples accompanying Him from the Scriptures, rather than simply reveal who He was. God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes. (GC 541) God appoints and ordains certain people to serve as His authoritative voice on earth. Yes, He employs other people to speak for Him, but not in the same authoritative way. This sounds like Catholicism. Again, do you think J&W fall under the same authoritative category as Moses, David, Paul, John, and Ellen? Ellen White, writing of J&W wrote: "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe" [1 Thessalonians 2:13]. The word of God cannot work effectually in the heart when it is barred out by unbelief. The message which the messengers have been proclaiming is the message to the Laodicean church. [Revelation 3:14-20, quoted.]
This message has not had the influence that it should have had upon the mind and heart of the believers. The true state of the church is to be presented before men, and they are to receive the word of God not as something originating with men, but as the word of God. Many have treated the message to the Laodiceans as it has come to them, as the word of man. Both message and messenger have been held in doubt by those who should have been the first to discern and act upon it as the word of God. (1888 Mat. 1051) Here a prophet of the Lord declares their message to be the "word of God." Is it possible for something to be more authoritative than the "word of God"?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Tom]
#97065
03/18/08 12:47 AM
03/18/08 12:47 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I wonder if J&W would not be better compared with Balaam. Have you read J&W? There's not much of Balaam to read, so it would be difficult to make a comparison.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Tom]
#97070
03/18/08 04:20 AM
03/18/08 04:20 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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I think the Bible is pretty clear that the Remnant will have the spirit of prophecy to the same degree that they keep the commandments of God. All who keep the commandments of God should also have the spirit of prophecy.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#97072
03/18/08 07:00 AM
03/18/08 07:00 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Thomas, J&W never claimed to have the gift of prophecy. Ellen white did. Also, I'm not sure I understand your last statement. J&W and Balaam? Neither did David claim prophethood as far as I know. Yet he is on your list of comparison. Balaam, a prophet who got something right as an exception to the rule rather than the other way around.
Last edited by västergötland; 03/18/08 07:01 AM.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: vastergotland]
#97073
03/18/08 11:00 AM
03/18/08 11:00 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Thomas, good point. But David certainly manifested the authoritative gift of prophecy. Is there any evidence J&W did? Tom seems to think so. I see what you mean about Balaam and J&W. Another good point. In the end, J&W apostatized. Too bad, because they really did have some good things to say; it's just that some sifting is necessary, which I find tedious.
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#97074
03/18/08 11:08 AM
03/18/08 11:08 AM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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TE: This sounds like Catholicism.
MM: In what way? Didn't Jesus invest the Church with authority? Isn't it the voice of God on earth when in general conference?
God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of committing is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has invested in His church in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work.--9T 260, 261 (1909). {LDE 56.1}
God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for he who does this despises the voice of God.--AA 164 (1911). {LDE 56.2}
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#97080
03/18/08 01:59 PM
03/18/08 01:59 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Thomas, J&W never claimed to have the gift of prophecy. Ellen white did. As a prophet, EGW recognized J&W's message as the "word of God," as the beginning of the loud cry, and the latter rain. By the way, she referred to them as "prophets" by quoting a Scripture reference using the word "prophets." But, once again, the title or category that one holds is not the important thing. The important thing is if one has a message from the Lord. That's all the authority one needs.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Tom]
#97081
03/18/08 02:05 PM
03/18/08 02:05 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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It's just that some sifting is necessary During the time that EGW was endorsing them, I am aware of only one theological point that she corrected either Jones or Waggoner on. Waggoner was teaching that because Christ had perfect faith, He could not sin. That's it. One correction out of thousands of pages that they have written. For a couple of years, EGW, Jones and Waggoner preached together. She would have had ample opportunity to correct their theology there, if there was anything to correct. I think "understanding" would be better than "sifting." This message has not had the influence that it should have had upon the mind and heart of the believers. The true state of the church is to be presented before men, and they are to receive the word of God not as something originating with men, but as the word of God. Many have treated the message to the Laodiceans as it has come to them, as the word of man. Both message and messenger have been held in doubt by those who should have been the first to discern and act upon it as the word of God. Had they received the word of God sent to them, they would not now be in darkness. (1888 Mat. 1051)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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