How so? It seems to fit quite well.



Better is the same sun that melts the ice bakes the clay works. What you wrote is still making the problem seem to be God, rather than sin.



Reference?

TE: What you wrote is still making the problem seem to be God, rather than sin.

MM: How so?

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TE: Reference?

MM: 2 Cor 5:21; Heb 12:29; DA 107.4

Because it doesn't say anything about sin, and makes death appear to be something that happens because of God.



Which of these says that Jesus, while dwelling in sinful flesh, was unable to survive the undiluted glory of God? Where did you get this idea?

Jesus not only survived the glory of God, He manifested it!

TE: Which of these says that Jesus, while dwelling in sinful flesh, was unable to survive the undiluted glory of God? Where did you get this idea?

MM: Jesus became sin for us. Sin cannot dwell in the undiluted presence of God. Where do you find Jesus, while in sinful flesh, communing face to face with God?

I could have a theory, say that while in sinful flesh, one cannot set foot on Mars, because in sinful flesh one is incapable of surviving such an experience. You ask me for evidence, and I respond: "Where do you find Jesus, while in sinful flesh, setting foot on Mars?"

I asked you for some statement which says what your theory says, that Jesus Christ, while in sinful flesh, could not have survived being in the presence of God. You cited 3 references that had nothing to do with your claim. You still haven't produced any statement that says that Jesus could not have survived being in the presence of God.

I have a point of clarification regarding your argument I'd like to ask you about regarding that Jesus became sin for us. Do you understand that Jesus became sin for us at the cross? Or during his whole life?

Tom, the passages I cited clearly teach sin cannot abide the undiluted glory of God's presence. To sin, "wherever" found, God is a consuming fire. Jesus became sin for us when He became a human. In this state, He could not be in the undiluted presence of God without being consumed by His glory.

Sin is not alive, MM. It's not something which can survive or die. People can survive or die. People who choose to give themselves over to sin die because the principle of sin, which is to live for self, is incapable of supporting life.



What is the law of life? Unselfish giving. What is the opposite? Selfish taking. What is the opposite of life? Death.



When He became human, or on the cross? You've stated a number of times that Jesus would have been consumed by God's glory had He been in God's presence, but you haven't produces evidence for this, unless your evidence is the following argument:

a)Jesus was sin.
b)Sin is consumed by God's glory.
c)Therefore Jesus could not be in God's glory, since Jesus was sin.

That's not much of an argument, if that's what you're saying, but I'll wait for you to confirm that is indeed what you mean before responding.

Tom, the passages I cited clearly teach sin cannot abide the undiluted glory of God's presence.

To sin, "wherever" found, God is a consuming fire. This is one of your favorites quotes. "Wherever" includes Jesus.

Jesus became sin for us when He became a human. Does that answer your question?

In this state, He could not be in the undiluted presence of God without being consumed by His glory. This is logical, too.

Where do you find Jesus appearing in God's undiluted glory?

Your language is difficult for me to follow. If we understand the glory of God to be His character, which is the correct understanding, then Jesus always appeared in God's undiluted glory. Jesus not only appeared in it, He manifested it.



I was going to present a quote from the SOP, and present the Scripture that she presented, but since both are in her quote, I'll just use that.

She is correct in affirming that the glory of God is His character, and she demonstrates this fact exactly how I would have, from Ex. 33. So, given that the glory of God is His character, for Jesus to appear in God's undiluted glory simply means that Jesus appeared in God's undiluted character, which is a funny way of phrasing things, which is why I said your language is difficult to follow.

At any rate, there was no barrier between God and Jesus; God revealed His character, or glory, fully to Jesus, without reservation, and Jesus revealed that glory to us fully, or, to use your word, undiluted.

Regarding Jesus' becoming sin for us when He became a human, what do you think that means? What Jesus literally sin? Or could it mean that Jesus bore our sin, and took our sinful nature?

In the past you've spoken about how God hates sin, and is angry at it, and pours out His wrath against it, and you've spoken about how this is how God treated Jesus on the cross. If Jesus "became sin" for us when He became a human, then does it follow that God treated Jesus in the way that you described throughout His whole life?

Yes, Jesus became sin for us. Yes, He inherited the same fallen flesh nature we inherit. His becoming sin for us cannot mean He committed a sin, or that His charater was corrupted by sin. The flesh He inherited, however, was sinful. It warred against Him in the same way it wars against us. It is this sinfulness that cannot abide in the undiluted presence of God. To this sin "wherever" found, our God is a consuming fire. God protected Jesus from suffering fully until He paid our penalty on the cross.