Hello Mark

Sorry if I did not make myself clear.

You present an interesting point; but this is what I think is being questioned right now...I will quote from Linda's first post:

"It is my belief from my study that when this war is over, after it has spread to the entire Middle East, that we will see the National Sunday Laws be enacted and spread worldwide."

Mark

If you check page 691-94 of this book by Uriah Smith; you will also see that he is placing the "drying up of the Euphrates" as something that happens during the seven last plagues;" at the time of the 6th plague, to be exact.

The key event to be noticed in this plague, would be the issuing forth of "three unclean spirits like frogs..." (Rev.16:3).

I find it difficult to associate the current conflict in Iraq, within this time setting by Uriah Smith.

What are your thoughts? I would appreciate hearing them.

[ April 18, 2003, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

Revelation
16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Where in the SOP does she describe an Arab-American conflict during the seven last plagues?

Instead of a war between two rival nations near the Euphrates River I read Ellen White describing the forehead marked followers of spiritual Babylon withdrawing their support and turning their weapons upon her and the blood bath that ensues. This makes sense in light of water symbolizing people and the Euphrates River being the water supply for Babylon.

1. The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin;" and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. {GC 655.4}

2. In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low. "And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried." Jeremiah 25:33. {GC 656.3}

Daryl, why do you believe a US war with Iraq is a giant stepping stone toward the fulfillment of prophecy? which prophecy are you referring to? where in the SOP do you get this idea?

I agree with Gregory that we can see the fulfillment of prophecy after the events have transpired. I have to say that I was an SDA for a long time before I realized this fact.

A number of years ago I heard a sermon at camp meeting in which the speaker pointed out the many times over the past decades that Adventists, not necessarily the church, have said that "this is it" with respect to the end. And it wasn't "it."

This is not to say that there does not seem to be a confluence of events that could unfold as some have speculated. It destroys credibility, however, when we say this current event will lead to this other event, etc.

I wasn't referring to any specific prophecy, however, I was referring to the USA's war against Iraq as an indication of the USA beginning to speak more agressively which is a beginning of a different kind of voice as depicted in prophecy in which the lamblike beast is beginning to speak like a _____________. You can fill in the blank.

Daryl, it sounds like you have determined that the US action against Iraq was preemptive or unprovoked. That's easy for us to say. We didn't live under the repressive regime of Saddam. We didn't live in fear of our lives if we spoke the truth about our government. People who oppose the action taken against Saddam in essence approve of his form of dictatorship. Can you imagine how different history would be if Europe had cared enough to check the tide of Hitler's maddness before it got out of control? instead of waiting until it was too late? Did you oppose detente during the cold war? or are you happy communism fell in Russia?

Ask all of those Iraqis who celebrated the downfall of Saddam - Are you sorry he's gone? The truth be told the world is a better and safer place without him in power. Perhaps you're glad he's gone too. But how can you insinuate the US used bad judgment or acted like a "dragon" because she ousted a mad man and a murderer? Did you really think it was humane to stand by and allow him to abuse his people and fund terrorism while the liberals continued hoping he would eventually listen to reason and common sense?

It is one of the duties of a super power to liberate the downtrodden. When freedom and democracy begin to work in Iraq the other Arab nations are going to seek the same. Once the doors of freedom are open Christian missionaries will be able to share the gospel with whoever is willing to listen. And when this gospel is preached in the world as a witness Jesus can return. Amen! Thank you President Bush! Thank you Jesus!

The conflict in and around Iraq and the Euphrates River could easily be taken as something being literally fulfilled in the prophecy in Rev. 16:12.
But, as it has been pointed out there are some things we know to be true which shows this text is speaking symbolically.

This event spoken of, the "Drying up of the Euphrates," does not occur until the last plagues.
Also, as we are reminded in the book, "God Cares," by Mervyn Maxwell, "In 1944,the allies successfully crossed the English Channel in places where the channel is 100 miles wide. Where the Euphrates flows through Syria, the area most likely for a crossing is mucn less than a mile in width.....hardly an obstacle, even if it were running full."

So, doesn't it seem that this has to be a different kind of warfare, a different meaning to the Euphrates, as Mike has stated below:

..................................................
Instead of a war between two rival nations near the Euphrates River I read Ellen White describing the forehead marked followers of spiritual Babylon withdrawing their support and turning their weapons upon her and the blood bath that ensues. This makes sense in light of water symbolizing people and the Euphrates River being the water supply for Babylon.
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[ April 21, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Dora ]

Hi Dora

You stated it well.

Since it is easy to see the time period when whatever does happen with the Euphrates River happens; we can atleast be sure that the current situation in Iraq is no more a "sign" than any number of other conflicts in the world today.

Besides, some of the major "signs" involve deception. Not war.

Mike and others,

All I am saying is that the USA has taken what I see as an about face.

The USA stayed out of World War 2 until the Pearl Harbour incident.

Why was that?

Why didn't they make a pre-emptive strike against Germany under Hitler as they did against Iraq under Hussein?

Why did they stay out of the war of liberation and freedom until they were forced into the war as a result of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour?

Could the answer be that there is a shift in the attitude of the USA which is transforming it from the features of a lamb to that of a dragon?

September 11th was obviously a pivotal date towards this change of attitude.

These are the events that are setting the USA up to the very slow but prophetic transformation.

Although, as in my post above, I do not see the war with Iraq having anything to do with "the drying up of the Euphrates," as a literal happening.

On the other hand, no doubt the devil loves the geography mentioned here, for he can cause some to look at these as literal applications.

Daryl, as I also stated above, much as I hate to think it, I feel the US is shifting its attitude, and it is transforming from the features of a lamb to that of a dragon.

I thought your last sentence very appropriate.

"These are the events that are setting the USA up to the very slow but prophetic transformation."

It seems that in almost indiscernable ways, these things are happening, and I believe it is not any one thing that is THE determining factor, but, it is rather like building blocks, and one day we will look, and be startled to see the "tower" is already in place!

Then"the final movements will be rapid ones....."