No smokers or drinkers in heaven? I was just making a point that a person is held accountable for what he considers wrong. This might be different for different people.

But why did God wink at it?

And, why did He make a law requiring a man to marry his brother's widow?

Also, did God wink at incest in the beginning? Or, did He have a choice?

Tom, can you name a sinful behavior Jesus winks at nowadays?

PS - We both agree polygamy isn't a sinful behavior Jesus winks at in cases involving properly prepared and baptized SDA church members, so, can we eliminate it as an example?

Aaron, does this apply to people who were properly prepared for baptism? By properly prepared I have in mind what Jesus said at the end of Matthew - the Gospel Commission.

Jesus didn't say, "Once you become perfect you will never sin again."

Being perfect is conditional. Jesus said, "Whosoever abideth in [me] does not sin." (1 John 3:1-10) Paul wrote, "Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." (Gal 5:16)

So, the condition of not sinning is abiding in Jesus, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. So long as this is happening a person "does not" and "cannot" commit a known sin.

Which, of course, is good news!

This is true, to some degree. But what about Jesus' family members? What would they have said about Him? In other words, human opinions and insights are not always reliable.

It is better to believe the promises of God. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." This is the testimony of God - and it is true.

I don't think focusing solely or primarily on behavior is very beneficial. If one is totally off on one's view of what God is like, nice behavior won't avail. Consider the Pharisees.

[Inga here just dropping in for a moment.... we're in New Mexico with our son.]

I just want to affirm Tom's statement below.

Believing one is perfect is a self-focused belief.

Believing that perfection is possible may be either God-focused (believing that God can do what He promised) or self-focused (believing I'll get there one of these days).

MM, the trouble I have with your statement below is that both the "knowing" and the "hoping" are self-focused.

The religion of Christ takes our focus off self and on Jesus. We can have the assurance that He who began a good work in us will surely bring it to completion. Period.

In that assurance, we can go forth and do His work on this earth. (No wondering or even thinking about our perfection.)


Your subsequent response to Tom is similarly self-focused:


My "blessed assurance" is that Christ's grace is all-sufficient, not in my "actively and aggressively walking int he Spirit" and "knowing" I'm "being like Jesus."

IMO, as long as I'm focused on my state of perfection or lack of it, I'm exactly where Satan wants me -- with my focus on self rather than on Christ.

In reading further in the thread,I continue to see this focus on "my perfection," and I believe that focus in itself prevents the kind of growth in perfection God wants us to have.

Jesus focused on the Father and His work in this world.

If we wish to be His disciples, our focus must be the same -- off self and on Christ and His work. He'll take care of the "perfection," just as He promised to do.

As nearly as I can tell, västergötland are pretty much on the same page in several areas. And I agree with Arnold's statements too.

Even Tom falls into the trap when he writes:


If we are intent on following Christ in loving obedience, He will take care of our perfection! It is not to be our focus. He is to be our focus!

MM, I'm wondering whether you would equate a lack of "iniquity" with "perfection." (Your posts seem to indicate a relationship.)
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By the way, folks, I believe that the story of Balaam's attempt to curse Israel is relevant to this topic.

Read Numbers 23 and tell me what you think.

Note especially verse 21:
"He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel"