I hope you'll tell us more Linda if you feel impressed to.

Last weekend I reviewed the SDA Bible Commentary on the 6th plague and Armageddon. The commentators tell us that there have been two main views in Adventism - the older first put forward in the 1860's by James White - that Armageddon and the drying up of the Euphrates is symbolic of the demise of Babylon - and the view of a decade or two later by U Smith - that attaches more significance to the geographical location of the Euphrates than White. The commentators point out that the two views have more in comman than they differ. The commentators also seem to lean towards the opinion that a synthisis of both views may be the best answer.

I tend to agree. The main area that I think those who adopt the view of James White need to consider is the evidence in other scripture that the Asian nations will be the means that God will use to punish Babylon.

Mike, I am really astonished that you see George Bush as doing the work of the Lord. If he was doing the work the Lord wants him to, he would be giving homes to the homeless and addressing the grinding poverty and ecological issues at home. If God elects leaders, might God not have elected Saddam Hussein? And therefore, how dare another country decide what is best. This war was not for freeing anyone. The reasons for theis so-called war - in reality an attack by the United States - have changed regularly. Where was America when the East Timorese were being slaughtered in the tens of thousands? To thank George Bush and Jesus in the same breath is astonishing to me.

A recent article published on a large religious site defined George Bush's apocalyptic vision, and explained that he believes the Middle East turmoil can hasten Jesus' return. I may still have the link if you're interested. If you can't see the image to the beast in recent events, I would suggest you read Great Controversy again.

Manuscript Releases Volume One----PG- 49
Succession of Empires Governed by Law of Obedience
"Hundreds of years before certain nations came upon the stage of action, the Omniscient One looked down the ages, and predicted through His servants the prophets the rise and fall of the universal kingdoms. The prophet Daniel, when interpreting to the king of Babylon the dream of the great image, --an image symbolic of the kingdoms of the world,--declared to Nebuchadnezzar that his kingdom should be superseded. His greatness and power in God's world would have their day, and a second kingdom would arise, which also would have its period of trial as to whether it would exalt the one Ruler, the only true God. Not doing this, its glory would fade away, and a third kingdom would occupy its place. Proved by obedience or disobedience,
this also would pass away; and a fourth, strong as iron, would subdue the nations of the world. These predictions of the Infinite One, recorded on the prophetic page and traced on the pages of history, were given to demonstrate that God is the ruling power in the affairs of this world. He changes the times and the seasons, He removes kings and sets up kings, to fulfill His own purpose. . . .

So every murder/assassination of every leader of every country is ordained by God? Where does the sin factor come into this? Is it impossible to wantonly murder a political leader by virtue of them being a leader?

In Endtime Issues #18, Bacchiocchi has made some interesting obsrvation. Whether one agrees or not they still are provocative. "The presence of injustice in this world, where ruthless dictators like Saddan Hussein violate the rights of innocent people with impunity, raises the question: What is the Christian responsibility toward people suffering under oppressive political regimes? Can Christians morally ignore ruthless dictators who slaughter dissenters and threaten the security of other nations? Should Christian nations that have technological, financial, and human resources engage in wars of liberation like the current "operation Iraqui freedom"?"

Another quote: "It appears to me that taking a stand against ruthless, dictatorial regimes is a moral necessity for Christians. Dietrich Bonhoeffer could have saved his life by following the strategy of some political and religious leaders, like the Pope himself, who tried diplomatic solutions that entailed partial cooperation with Hitler. But, he chose to take a stand against the atrocities being committed by Hitler's regime. We salute him for his willingness to pay the price of imprisonment and ultimately death."

And one more quote: "Comparatively speaking the participation of European countries in these wars of liberation has been minimal. European politicians, including my Italian countrymen, are great philosophers. They talk a lot about international problems, but they do very little about them. Michael Novak, a perceptive TV commentator, rightly observes that the "Europeans are living in a kind of welfare paradise, which they are not willing to give up. Since 1945, they have by and large been content for the people of the United States to pay the huge expenses of defending them from the Soviet Union and other threats. Meanwhile, they have concentrated on building a prosperous and comfortable life, at a level of popular wealth never known before in the history of Europe."

Read the entire article for yourself. http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_98.html

Pete did you mean this one? #18 I believe was on the state of the dead or something else. But 98 is on Iraq.

I am not endorcing Dr. Bacchiocchi, however he does give a good study on this and I intend to print this one out and study the scriptures he gives.

No one likes war. The innocent always get hurt. I am proud of my country and our servicemen who have given their time and lives to free a country that was being run by such a cruel regime. And I am proud of President Bush in his stand on this. Yes, I to believe that the making of the beast is being set up. But people this IS going to happen no matter who is in the President seat. I for one am happy that day is coming faster and faster. This old world is not my home. I praise God for His hand in the affairs of this world. He is in control of all the world affairs. We may not like or understand how things are working out, but they are working out the way they are soppose to. No need to fear...God is in control and He will take care of you. Our job is to warn those we come in contact with that the end of the world is about to come and they need to have their allegience on the side of God not the world.

One of the issues that is almost certain to confront every SDA is whether they support the position of their country whether it is the USA or any other nation to go to war.

There is a thread on combatancy in the SDA Church Issues forum that deals with the issue of bearing arms, but it also includes some quotes that have a bearing on how SDA's should relate to their own governments that are at war.

Here is one of the quotes below. I don't want to take this thread more off topic so I may open another thread on how we should relate to that issue.

quote:

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I was shown the dreadful state of our nation, and again was referred to Isaiah 58; 59:1-15, as a description of the present state of things in our nation, and the reason for their present calamity. This is a most unrighteous war. The inhabitants of the earth have forgotten God. They have trampled upon His law and broken the everlasting covenant. They have despised His Sabbath. The fourth commandment was shown me as a golden link which God designed should serve as a bond of union uniting man to man and connecting earth to heaven and finite man to the infinite God.

But the man of sin has exalted himself above God, and has sought to break this golden chain, yet it is not broken. It exists yet, and will continue to exist as long as the new heavens and earth remain. Anciently God went before His people to battle against their enemies, but holy and consecrated ones bore the ark containing the ten precepts of Jehovah, and if any had transgressed any one of these ten commandments in the decalogue God turned His face from His people and suffered the enemy to make a dreadful slaughter. If Israel kept the ten precepts, a copy of which was contained in the ark they bore with them, God's angels fought with the armies of Israel, and although their numbers were ever so small, He turned back their enemies and gave them a triumphant victory.

Sabbathkeepers now cannot expect this, and should not, upon any consideration, engage in this terrible war. They have nothing to hope for. The desolating power of God is upon the earth to rend and destroy; the inhabitants of the earth are appointed to the sword, famine, and pestilence.--Ms 5, 1862, pp. 1, 2. ("Regarding the Civil War," circa 1862.) Published in Manuscript Releases Volume Seven, page 111 - 112
Chapter Title: The Civil War

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Notice above that Sister White characterizes the Civil War as a judgment from God on the entire nation for it’s breach of the fourth commandment. She roundly condemns the war out of hand calling it “a most unrighteous war”. Both the North and the South are condemned, and her advise is to have nothing to do with it. Her position regarding the North is what surprized me. What would she say today regarding some of the calamities that have befallen the US?

David,
I really appreciated your last post, and it also causes us to ask "how can we escape being deceived by the counterfeit?"

In GC 625 is some well known counsel to many Seventh Day Adventists:

"Only those who have been diligent students of the Scriptures and who have received the love of the truth will be shielded from the powerful delusion that takes the world captive. By the Bible testimony these will detect the deceiver in his disguise. To all the testing time will come. By the sifting of temptation the genuine Christian will be revealed. Are the people of God now so firmly established upon His word that they would not yield to the evidence of their senses? Would they, in such a crisis, cling to the Bible and the Bible only? Satan will, if possible, prevent them from obtaining a preparation to stand in that day. He will so arrange affairs as to hedge up their way, entangle them with earthly treasures, cause them to carry a heavy, wearisome burden, that their hearts may be overcharged with the cares of this life and the day of trial may come upon them as a thief."

I wondered, as I read this in GC, to how many of us does this apply? And, I would have to say, that in some way, probably to us all! Just daily living in this world is such a challenge, and Satan knows exactly what our weakest points are, and how to get to us. He knows how to cause trials and irritations that take our time from Bible study and prayer, and our mind off Jesus.

So, is there any hope, any safety for us? And what is the "work" we are to do?

"Thou will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on Thee: because He trusteth in Thee." Isa.26:3 and, "in quietness and confidence shall be your strength....." Isa.30:15.

When chaos and confusion swirls around us, like a maelstrom even in our own homes, we can experience that "peace like a river," if our mind is "stayed on Jesus," through study, committing the Word to memory, and being "instant in prayer." To me, this means having in my mind always, that "Jesus is near," just as a loving parent, waiting for us to be in constant communication with him, sometimes with words, sometimes with just "quietness," as He speaks to us, and He will be our strength, and our refuge.

Dora! Are you following me on the net or what??

I'll have to find a good place to hide!

[ May 08, 2003, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]