Tom, you seem to be saying law and justice did not require Jesus to die in order to pardon and save sinners. You also seem to be saying Jesus died to demonstrate God's love, and it is this demonstration of God's love that motivates sinners to seek pardon and salvation in and through Jesus.

If this is what you're saying, why, then, did Jesus say, before He died on the cross, that He had fully revealed the Father? He fully revealed the love of God before He suffered and died on the cross.

John
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Show us the Father?
14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John
15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

MM, I wrote three long posts I presented arguments from Scripture, from the Spirit of Prophecy, and from history, none of which you are addressing here, as far as I can tell.

To respond to your comments and questions, neither the law nor justice are sentient beings who can require or not require anything. To say that justice or the law requires something is to say that some being, or beings, require these things. Is this being God? Are you saying that God required Jesus to die in order to pardon and save sinners? If so, I would say that Scripture teaches that God so loved the world that He *gave* His only begotten son.

It would be more accurate to say that God was required to give His Son, as the only means by which sinners could be saved and pardoned. To say that God required Jesus' death makes it sound as if God and Jesus were somehow against each other. But they were working together for the salvation of man.

Now it's possible to interpret the phrase "the law required Jesus' death" or "justice required Jesus' death" in another way. As we see in Scripture, "justice" has to do with the restoration of the community (or individual) to shalom. So understood in this sense, I would agree with phrase, in which the meaning would be that the only way that the sinner could be restored was by way of Jesus' death.

Regarding the reason for Jesus' death, what you mentioned in regards to motivation is certainly one reason for which Jesus died. The article I referenced mentioned several reasons for which Christ died, and I agree with those reasons. As the article pointed out, there were several models of the Atonement that were known and presented in the early church; just not Anselm's.



I'm sorry, but I can answer your question because I don't know what you're trying to get at here. What is it that you are disagreeing with? That Jesus death motivates sinners? That Jesus revealed the Father?

God = Godhead

All three of them consented to the plan of salvation before they consented to creating FMAs. They established laws which regulate how they would govern FMAs - obey and live; sin and die. If FMAs rebelled, a plan was in place to deal with the problem. That plan involved Jesus paying the price for rebellion so that sinners could be redeemed.

The death of Jesus also vindicates law and justice. This is as important as redeeming sinners. Law and justice serve, as it were, as a third party. The Godhead is obligated to govern the universe in accordance with law and justice, which they themselves established. All agree that law and justice are fair and right and equitable. Thus, no one can accuse the Godhead of being arbitrary. They cannot disregard law and justice without creating chaos and incurring guilt.

AG 73
So long as sin exists, suffering and death are inevitable. It is only because the Redeemer has borne the curse of sin in our behalf, that man can hope to escape, in his own person, its dire results. {AG 73.3}

AG 139
Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

2MCP 565
God cannot dispense with His law, He cannot do away with its smallest item, in order to pardon sin. The justice, the moral excellence, of the law must be maintained and vindicated before the heavenly universe. And that holy law could not be maintained at any smaller price than the death of the Son of God.--RH, Nov. 15, 1898. {2MCP 565.2}

The idea that the death of Jesus was necessary in order to prove God is loving and worthy of our worship falls apart in light of the fact Jesus had already demonstrated, before He suffered and died on the cross, that God is loving and worthy of our worship.

If the primary purpose of His death was to prove God is loving and worthy of our worship, why, then, did He have to die - since He had already accomplished these things before He died? Is it a case of over-kill?

Since Jesus had already demonstrated that God is loving and worthy of our worship, it stands to reason He went on to suffer and die on the cross for different reasons. I believe Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross satisfied the demands of law and justice, that it gives the Godhead the legal right to pardon and save penitent sinners.

The following paragraph is in the context of a discussion of what Jesus' death accomplished:





Over-kill? As if we could know the love of God too well? No, I don't think so.

In relation to Christ's death, there are other beings to consider as well. The doubts that had been raised in regards to God's character had an impact on unfallen worlds and the holy angels. It was not until the death of Christ that the questions these beings had were fully answered. The cross of Christ was necessary to safe-guard the universe. Without the death of Christ, the universe would have been in the same state it was when Satan first made his accusations.

The above paragraph is simply stating thoughts from the SOP which I trust you are familiar with. I can provide the references for them, if you wish, although I've done so many times in the past, so I'm assuming you remember them.



You could make an argument that other reasons were involved, and this is true. I mentioned a couple of them in the comments just above this one. However, the fact that Jesus revealed God's love previous to His death does not imply that Jesus did not do so by His death as well. Indeed, I don't think you would argue that Jesus' death reveals God's love more fully than any other act He did.



I agree with this.



This can't be right. If Christ's death were necessary to give the Godhead the legal right to pardon, then it would have been necessary for Lucifer as well. But God offered him pardon without Christ's death. Was that illegal?

How does this idea even make sense? If you owe me a debt, I can forgive your debt, because you owe it do me. There is no legal requirement that I do something first, before I can forgive your debt.

Also, I've been asking you for some time now to produce some evidence from Jesus' teaching which supports the idea that Jesus had to die in order for God to be able to legally forgive us, but, to date, you haven't produced anything, have you?

Were these laws established arbitrarily? Or were they simply a consequence of creating FMA's? That is, is it possible to sin and not die? Is it possible to obey and not live?



This is true.



This is also true.



Justice and law are simply concepts which flow naturally from the attributes of God's character. They cannot meaningfully be separated from God, or treated as a third party to whom God must report, or pay homage, or satisfy.



You make it sound as if God is subservient to something He created.



Not all agree. That's why there's a Great Controversy going on.

The law and justice are fair and right and equitable if and only if God is fair and right and equitable. This is the problem with your suggestion that God can prove His course to have been correct by submitting to a third party, the law and justice. (I say "your suggestion," because this is how I perceive you to be arguing. These are my words, not yours, so if you feel I'm misrepresenting your argument, please correct my conclusions here). The law and justice can be no more right or fair or equitable than God.



This doesn't follow. If God created a law, and said that everybody had to obey it under pain of death, what could be more arbitrary than that? What makes things not arbitrary is if sin results in death as a necessary consequence of the nature of sin itself.



I agree with this, but why not? If it is simply because God says so, then that's arbitrary. If, on the other hand, God says so because this is reality, then it's not.

Tom, do you agree Jesus fully revealed the love and character of the Father before He suffered and died on the cross?

TE: If you owe me a debt, I can forgive your debt, because you owe it do me. There is no legal requirement that I do something first, before I can forgive your debt.

MM: Unless the law forbids it.

TE: Also, I've been asking you for some time now to produce some evidence from Jesus' teaching which supports the idea that Jesus had to die in order for God to be able to legally forgive us, but, to date, you haven't produced anything, have you?

MM: Obviously you are rejecting the SOP quotes I have posted numerous times. Why? The entire sacrificial system makes it clear pardon and salvation are conditional upon a substitute suffering and dying in the place of penitent sinners. It was not optional. It is not merely symbolic. Law and justice demand of God the substitutional death of Jesus in order to have the legal right to pardon and save penitent sinners. No death, no pardon. No pardon, no salvation.

Hebrews
9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hebrews
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

Correction. All agreed the laws of God were fair and right and equitable until Lucifer began to find fault with them. But, are his objections fair and right and equitable? Or, are they bogus? Do you know of any in heaven who feels the law of God is arbitrary? Did they suspect it was arbitrary until Jesus suffered and died on the cross? If so, please post the quotes which support it.

The Godhead is obligated to govern the universe in accordance with the laws themselves established, laws which all agree are fair and right and equitable. The laws serve as a third party. All are beholden to live in harmony with them.

It is incumbent upon the Godhead to uphold and enforce them. They cannot disregard them. This is not, of course, a problem for the Godhead. They uphold and enforce the laws because it is fair and right and equitable. We can trust them to do what is fair and right and equitable. We do not have to wonder if the Godhead will go postal on us some day.

Death is not the inevitable result of sinning. God must pull the plug before sinners can die. Law and justice demands death for sinning. The Godhead is required by law to punish and destroy sinners. Law and justice allows for God to die in place of sinners so that sinners can be pardoned and saved.