Mountain Man

Let me respond to these:


What happens at conversion? From your comments you propose that all sins are overcome before conversion. At the same time, common observation is that there are a LOT of imperfect saints in the church. And I am not talking about bad breath, I would have to say that too many of us still have real sins in our lives.

I have heard it said that no man is ever 100% aware of himself. Each person has a "growing edge" to his personality where he is aware, active, and learning. When, within this growing edge, a person becomes aware of a sin, he must confess, seek forgiveness and cleansing (1 John 1:9).

At the same time there are large areas in one's personality that are "silent." These silent areas still affect daily life, but probably on a habitual level. And within this silent area are sins that a person is not aware of. It is by the grace of God that these sins are brought to our attention so that we can confess, seek forgiveness and be cleansed (Heb. 12:2). Many, if not most of our sins are in this category, and must be dealt with after we are converted.

As an aside, during the day of Atonement, the people of Israel were called on to "afflict themselves." I would propose that this was a process whereby a person actively sought for any hidden sin in his life, and sought forgiveness and cleansing. This is the process that the 144,000 must go through before the close of probation.

2 Peter 1:4-8 is an excellent passage describing the growth in grace of the Christian after he has been born again. It has been said that the closer we come to Christ, the more sinful we realize that we are. I suspect that we all regard the problem of sin altogether too lightly. It is only in the light of the cross that we see the hideousness of sin, and learn to hate any contact with sin.

The gap that is formed when the mature Christian recognizes the sinfulness of his nature is bridged only by the cross.
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Hubert F. Sturges

"growing edge" is a nice phrase.

Nice post, Hubert. It's a difficult subject to describe precisely, and I think you did a good job here.

HS: At the same time there are large areas in one's personality that are "silent." These silent areas still affect daily life, but probably on a habitual level. And within this silent area are sins that a person is not aware of. It is by the grace of God that these sins are brought to our attention so that we can confess, seek forgiveness and be cleansed (Heb. 12:2). Many, if not most of our sins are in this category, and must be dealt with after we are converted.

MM: I realize this is the most popular theory regarding growth in grace, character development, sanctification. However, I have been unable to support it from the Bible or the SOP. Again, nowhere does it say we are born again ignorant of certain sinful practices, certain defects and imperfections we are blind to because the Holy Spirit has chosen not to reveal them to us yet. Why would the Holy Spirit do such a thing?

I would like to ask you, as I have asked others who hold to this theory - can you name a sinful practice born again believers do unwittingly, blindly, ignorantly; that is, behaviors that offend people around them, that cause them to despise the Gospel, that lead them to conclude Christianity is a joke, defects and imperfections the Holy Spirit is waiting to reveal to them until the time is right?

Your last sentence here has some false logic built into it. It's a challenge discussing things with you because so much of what you write has these false premises buried into what you present. That is, you ask yes or no questions, or make black and white statements, that can't be dealt with on a "yes" or "no" basis because they assume false premises.

Here, for example, a false premise is in the part that says "because the Holy Spirit has chosen not to reveal them to us yet." This is a false premise, because it assumes causation where none exists.

For example, let's consider some other area of ignorance, in some other area of study, say Mathematics. Suppose you are learning Calculus, but there are certain integrals you don't know how to do. Now one could say, "Nowhere is it written that we don't know how to do certain integrals because God hasn't revealed their solutions to us."

Now it is certainly true that God knows how to do any integral we wish to perform, and it is also true that if God were to reveal their solution to us, we would no longer be ignorant of how to do them. However, it does not follow that the reason we don't know how to do the integrals is *because* God chooses not to reveal their solution to us.



You construct a false theory, that nobody holds to, and then ask people to defend it. Why not look at what people are actually saying, and respond to that?

Mountain Man;

We'll start here:

Sins that are hidden? Are you kidding? Don't you sometimes use the term "blind spot" to describe offending habits of some people, where those people do not realize that they are offending?

I would propose that the basic sins deeply embedded in the sinful nature are pride and selfishness. There are some common sins -- criticism, gossiping, anger, stubbornness, failure to listen to others, being stingy with offerings, choosing fiction over Bible study ... (You add to the list). These are "white collar sins" that it is often easy to excuse, and even hide from ourselves. Can you think of any good church members who suffer from any of these sins? Will the 144,000 need to overcome these sins before they are sealed? If you say "no" to either question, I have a good deal on shares in the Brooklyn Bridge I would like to sell you!

Does the Holy Spirit "wait" to bring sins to our attention? YES! Of course! 1 Corinthians 10:13 indicates that our temptations, tests, and trials are measured according to what we are able to withstand. If God showed us all our sins at one time, we would be overwhelmed. He is patient and works with us as we are able.
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Hubert F. Sturges

Hubert, thank you for answering my questions. I take it your answer is - Yes.

I hear you saying "criticism, gossiping, anger, stubbornness, failure to listen to others, being stingy with offerings, choosing fiction over Bible study ... (You add to the list)" are examples of sinful habits and practices born again believers, who are abiding in Jesus, commit unwittingly because the Holy Spirit hasn't reveal it to them yet, and who are ignorant of the fact they are causing people around them to conclude Christianity is joke.

I must confess, though, that I find it hard to believe this is what Jesus had in mind when He promised - "go, and sin no more", "whosoever abideth in him sinneth not".

Do you have any Scripture or SOP support to back up your thoughts?

Tom, thank you for the math lesson. But I don't see the correlation.

The math was irrelevant. I was giving you an example of the logic you were using.

MM, you're not listening. You say, "I hear you saying ..." but what you are hearing is not at all what is being said. HS said nothing about "causing people around them to conclude Christianity is a joke." It's unkind of you to keep introducing this element.

Phrasing your thought this way would be far less offensive:



If you want to, you could add:



Please think about how what you write will sound to the person reading your post.

Tom, Hubert named specific sins people commit unwittingly. The he wrote: "Does the Holy Spirit "wait" to bring sins to our attention? YES! Of course!" From this I gather he believes the Holy Spirit waits to reveal these types of offfending sinful behaviors.

What do you think? Does the Holy Spirit wink at sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people around them to conclude Christianity is a joke?

PS - You may have noticed by now that this is what concerns me. Thank you for being understanding.