Imported from another thread:

The following is an excerpt from a manuscript I'm working on:

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There is a radical difference in people before and after they are born again. “True conversion is a radical change.” (4T 17) Rebirth is nothing less than a miracle, therefore, it must necessarily resemble one. “This change is in itself the miracle of miracles.” (AA 476) There is nothing cheap or common about it. As you read the following quotations, please pay particular attention to the before and after principle Sister White employs. In other words, watch for the cause and consequence relationships.



Okay, what happens first? What is the cause, and what is the consequence? I’m sure you couldn’t help noticing that Sister White clearly taught people must first cooperate with the influence of the Holy Spirit to confess their old man habits of sin before they can experience the miracle of rebirth, before they can receive the sinless mind of the new man.

Please understand that nowhere in the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy is it taught that people must be born again before they begin a gradual process of outgrowing or overcoming their moral defective traits of character. The following quote reiterates the before and after sequence described above:



This quote, and others like it, makes it clear that people must first confess and then crucify their old man habits of sin before they can experience the miracle of rebirth. Again, this only makes sense. We cannot choose to be born again until we know exactly which traits we are required to give up and what ones we are required to keep.

Mike,

I hope this excerpt is not representative of the book you are writing, because it looks very much like a commented Ellen compilation. Please don't add to the scourge of adventism.

Mountain Man,

Here are two statements from your last post:

Then responding to an EGW quote, you say this:

I will give you room to stop and think of what you said, because I believe that you are quite knowledgeable on righteousness by faith. To restate what you said in my words, you are saying in your first statement that a person must overcome moral defects before he can be born again! Your second statement is similar, you are again saying that a person must first confess and be cleansed before he can be born again.

Shall I stop here? No, I will continue with some observations for the sake of others who are lurking and will want more explanation.

Jesus is the “Author and the finisher of our faith;” (Hebrews 12:2). That sounds to me that after he “authors” our faith, He goes on to “finish” it. Second Peter 1:4-8 describes a process in partaking of the divine nature. At what point is the person born again? I would say that he is born again before the process starts. God takes people where they are and makes of them what they ought to be.

Was Abram “born again” when he obeyed the call of God to go to Canaan? I believe he was. He was a commandment keeper (Genesis 18:19; 26:5). He obeyed the commands of God (Genesis 12:1). Was he perfect? No! Did he have defects (sins) to overcome? Yes!

You remember his story: failure to trust God regarding his safety in Egypt. Failure to trust God in offering Eliezer as his heir, and later in taking Hagar as a wife. He also had successes: obeyed the call to Canaan, rescued Lot from the four kings, believed God (finally) in the promise of a son, believed God (finally) regarding the covenant, obeyed God in offering to sacrifice Isaac.

This is in line with what EGW says about the testing process. A person (a born again Christian?) is tested on a certain point. If he overcomes and trusts God, he will go on to the next point he needs to overcome. If he fails, he will be led around to being tested again on the same point. The test is closer each time. With persistent failure to overcome, the sin or defect becomes an obsession (my word) and the person is lost.
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Hubert F. Sturges

I'm familiar with this thought (about God's coming back to a certain point, to test it), but don't know where it's found. Can someone produce this quote?

Tom, the process of salvation has been an interest of mine. I will post several pages that I collected on this:

CHARACTER TESTING

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
"MANY SHALL BE PURIFIED, and MADE WHITE, and TRIED; but the wicked shall do wickedly: . ." Daniel 12:9-10

"He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
"Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
"And he answering said unto him, Lord, LET IT ALONE THIS YEAR also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
"And IF IT BEAR FRUIT, WELL: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down." Luke 13:6-9

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is LONGSUFFERING to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

"GOD LEADS HIS PEOPLE on, STEP BY STEP. He brings them up to different points calculated to manifest what is in the heart. Some endure at one point, but fall off at the next. AT EVERY ADVANCED POINT THE HEART IS TESTED AND TRIED A LITTLE CLOSER. If the professed people of God find their hearts opposed to this straight work, it should convince them that they have a work to do to overcome, if they would not be spewed out of the mouth of the Lord.
"Said the angel, 'GOD WILL BRING HIS WORK CLOSER AND CLOSER TO TEST AND PROVE EVERY ONE OF HIS PEOPLE.' Some are willing to receive one point; but when God brings them to another testing point, they shrink from it and stand back, because they find that it strikes directly at some cherished idol. Here they have opportunity to see what is in their hearts that shuts out Jesus. They prize something higher than the truth, and their hearts are not prepared to receive Jesus.
"Individuals are TESTED AND PROVED A LENGTH OF TIME TO SEE IF THEY WILL SACRIFICE THEIR IDOLS AND HEED THE COUNSEL of the True Witness. If any will not be purified through obeying the truth, and overcome their selfishness, their pride, and evil passions, the angels of God have the charge, 'They are joined to their idols, let them alone,' and they pass on to their work, leaving these with their sinful traits unsubdued, to the control of evil angels.
"Those who come up to every point, and stand every test, and overcome, be the price what it may, have heeded the counsel of the True Witness, and they will receive the latter rain, and thus be fitted for translation." Testimony for the Church, vol. 1, p. 187

"It is by small things that our characters are formed to habits of integrity. Nothing with which we have to do is really small. Every action is of some account, either on the side of right, or on the side of wrong. In the varied circumstances of life WE ARE TESTED AND PROVED, AND THEREBY WE ACQUIRE A POWER TO STAND THE GREATER AND MORE IMPORTANT TESTS that we are called to endure, and are qualified to fill still more important positions." Testimony for the Church, vol. 3, p. 22

"And yet I knew that you would be BROUGHT OVER THE GROUND AGAIN, AND TESTED ON THE VERY POINTS WHERE YOU HAD FAILED BEFORE. Thus the Lord did for the children of Israel; thus he has done with his people in all ages. He will prove them where they have formerly failed; he will try them, and IF THEY FAIL UNDER THE TRIAL THE SECOND TIME, he will BRING THEM AROUND TO THE SAME TEST AGAIN." Testimony for the Church, vol. 5, p. 623

"The STRENGTH OF NATIONS, as of INDIVIDUALS, is not found in the opportunities or facilities that appear to make them invincible; it is not found in their boasted greatness. It IS MEASURED BY THE FIDELITY WITH WHICH THEY FULFILL GOD'S PURPOSE."
Prophets and Kings, p. 502

"GOD HAS ALWAYS TRIED HIS PEOPLE IN THE FURNACE OF AFFLICTION. It is in the heat of the furnace that the dross is separated from the true gold of the Christian character. JESUS WATCHES THE TEST; he knows what is needed to purify the precious metal, that it may reflect the radiance of his love. It is by close, testing trials that God disciplines his servants. He sees that some have powers which may be used in the advancement of his work, and he puts these persons upon trial; in his providence he brings them into positions that test their character, and reveal defects and weaknesses that have been hidden from their own knowledge. He gives them opportunity to correct these defects, and to fit themselves for his service. He shows them their own weakness, and teaches them to lean upon him; for he is their only help and safeguard. Thus his object is attained. They are educated, trained, and disciplined, prepared to fulfill the grand purpose for which their powers were given them. When God calls them to action, they are ready, and heavenly angels can unite with them in the work to be accomplished on the earth." Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 129-130

"So long as we choose the easy path of self-indulgence, and are frightened at self-denial, our faith will never become firm, and we cannot know the peace of Jesus, nor the joy that comes through CONSCIOUS VICTORY." Testimony for the Church, vol. 5, p. 215

". Those who have a zeal for God's honor and a love for souls, will not hold their peace to obtain favor of any. . They mourn before God to see religion despised in the very homes of those who have had great light. . The class who do not feel grieved over their own spiritual declension, nor mourn over the sins of others, will be left without the seal of God." Testimony for the Church, vol. 5, p. 210-211

"'These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.' John 16:33. The life of Christ's disciples is to be like His, a SERIES OF UNINTERRUPTED VICTORIES, not seen to be such here, but recognized as such in the great hereafter." Testimony for the Church, vol. 6, p. 307


"Upon this word Jesus rested, and He gave Satan no advantage. . With prophetic eye Christ traced the scenes to take place in His last great conflict. He knew that when He should exclaim, 'It is finished,' all heaven would triumph. . He knew that truth, armed with the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit, would conquer in the contest with evil; and that the bloodstained banner would wave triumphantly over His followers. He knew that the life of His trusting disciples WOULD BE LIKE HIS, a SERIES OF UNINTERRUPTED VICTORIES, not seen to be such here, but recognized as such in the great hereafter." Desire of Ages, p. 678,679
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Hubert F. Sturges
More to follow ......

EXPERIMENTS OF GRACE

"The world is a workshop in which, through the co-operation of human and divine agencies, JESUS IS MAKING EXPERIMENTS BY HIS GRACE AND DIVINE MERCY UPON HUMAN HEARTS. Angels are amazed as they behold the transformation of character brought about in those who yield themselves to God, and they express their joy in songs of rapturous praise to God and to the Lamb. They see those who are by nature the children of wrath, converted and becoming LABORERS TOGETHER WITH CHRIST IN DRAWING SOULS TO GOD. They see those who were in darkness becoming LIGHTS TO SHINE AMID THE MORAL NIGHT of this wicked and perverse generation. They see them becoming PREPARED BY A CHRISTLIKE EXPERIENCE TO SUFFER WITH THEIR LORD, and afterward to be partakers with Him in His glory in heaven above." Testimonies to Ministers, p. 49,50

"The Lord Jesus is making experiments on human hearts through the exhibition of His mercy and abundant grace. He is effecting transformations so amazing that Satan, with all his triumphant boasting, with all his confederacy of evil united against God and the laws of His government, stands viewing them as a fortress impregnable to his sophistries and delusions. They are to him an incomprehensible mystery." Testimonies to Ministers, p. 18

TIME NEEDED TO DEVELOP CHARACTER

"I saw that God's people must bring to him a free-will offering; and the responsibility should be left wholly upon the individual, whether he will give much or little. It will be faithfully recorded. Give the people of God TIME TO DEVELOP CHARACTER.

". . The Lord is testing and proving his people. If any have no heart in the work, and fail to bring their offerings to God, he will visit them; and if they continue to cling to their covetousness, he will separate them from his people. . . They (young people) are accountable to God for their strength, and should bring a free-will offering to the Lord. And if they will not do this, his prospering hand will be removed from them." Testimony for the Church, vol. 1, p. 238

"Because the TIME is apparently extended, many have become careless and indifferent in regard to their words and actions. They do not realize their danger, and do not see and understand the mercy of our God in lengthening their probation, that they may have TIME TO FORM CHARACTERS FOR THE FUTURE IMMORTAL LIFE. Every moment is of the highest value. TIME IS GRANTED THEM, not to be employed in studying their own ease and becoming dwellers on the earth, but to be used in the work of overcoming every defect in their own characters, and in helping others, by example and personal effort, to see the beauty of holiness.." Testimony for the Church, vol. 4, p. 306,307

"The gospel net gathers both good and bad. It TAKES TIME FOR CHARACTER TO BE DEVELOPED; there must be time to learn what men really are. . ." Testimony for the Church, vol. 5, p. 618

"COURAGE, FORTITUDE, FAITH, and implicit TRUST in God's power to save, do not come in a moment. These heavenly graces are ACQUIRED BY THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS. . They (the children of God) felt that they had a great work to do, and at any hour they might be called to lay off their armor; and SHOULD THEY COME TO THE CLOSE OF LIFE with their WORK UNDONE, it would be an ETERNAL LOSS. ." Testimony for the Church, vol. 5, p. 213

I will add just these few more lines giving important Bible references:

OVERCOMING, GROWTH

Trials or Chastening . . . Rev 3:19; Zech 13:9; Mal 3:3
Growth in grace . . . 2 Peter 1:4-8; Rom 5:1-5; Mark 4:26-29
Growth in doctrine . . . . Heb 6:1-6; 5:10-14

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Hubert F. Sturges

Hubert, please comment on the following insight:

The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on “kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.” (SD 300)

Does it mean we are born again first and then we begin the gradual process of leaving off sinful practices? If so, what about these passages:

1 Peter
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped [past tense] the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Sounds to me like first we escape corruption and then we partake of the divine nature, which implies the purpose of partaking of the divine nature is to mature in the fruits of the Spirit rather than to gradually leave off sinful practices.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Sounds to me like born again people do not and cannot commit a know sin while they are abiding in Jesus, while they are partaking of the divine nature.

Do you see what I mean?

Also, what does it mean to perfect holiness? Isn't holiness holy enough?

2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Peter seems to think new born babes, if they have tasted the grace of God, have laid aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings.

1 peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

Regarding evil speaking, James observed that people who are able to control their tongue are perfect, and able also to control their whole body.

James
3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.

Are Peter and James describing new born babes?

Hubert, does character growth and development involve gradually outgrowing our pre-conversion sinful practices?

The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on “kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.” (SD 300)

Hubert, earlier you wrote - "1 Corinthians 15:51-55 describes the change that occurs at the resurrection. This is not just a physical change. The very nature of man is changed also, and only at that time. (This is a controverted point, and I would appreciate your comments.)"

I agree with your observations. We are stuck with the unholy clamorings of our fallen flesh nature, our internal foes, until the day Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless body and nature.

GC 469
The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, but he will maintain a constant warfare against it. Here is where Christ's help is needed. Human weakness becomes united to divine strength, and faith exclaims: "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 15:57. {GC 469.3}

2T 74
Some have a much better organization than others. While some are continually harassed, afflicted, and in trouble because of their unhappy traits of character, having to war with internal foes and the corruption of their nature, others have not half so much to battle against. They pass along almost free from the difficulties which their brethren and sisters who are not so favorably organized are laboring under. In very many cases they do not labor half so hard to overcome and live the life of a Christian as do some of those unfortunate ones I have mentioned. The latter appear to disadvantage almost every time, while the former appear much better because it is natural for them so to do. {2T 74.1}

2T 507
If we make God our trust, we have it in our power to control the mind in these things. Through continued exercise it will become strong to battle with internal foes and to subdue self, until there is a complete transformation, and the passions, appetites, and will are brought into perfect subjection. Then there will be daily piety at home and abroad, and when we engage in labor for souls, a power will attend our efforts. The humble Christian will have seasons of devotion which are not spasmodic, fitful, or superstitious, but calm and tranquil, deep, constant, and earnest. The love of God, the practice of holiness, will be pleasant when there is a perfect surrender to God. {2T 507.1}

Here are sseveral more well worded passages that speak to this issue:


It is important to realize she doesn't equate resisting our sinful traits and tendencies, which strive for the mastery, which continually tempt and harass us from within, with sinning. It is not a sin to be tempted, even when those temptations originate from within. Resisting such sinful internal promptings to sin will never result in their extermination. Again, we are stuck with them until Jesus returns.