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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Tom]
#97689
04/03/08 04:39 AM
04/03/08 04:39 AM
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If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Simple yet incomprehensible to many.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Tom]
#97701
04/03/08 02:33 PM
04/03/08 02:33 PM
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TV: That which saved a crucified robber with mere hours to live is the same which saved a man who walked with God for hundreds of years and never tasted death (as far as we know).
MM: Do you doubt Enoch is in heaven?
TV: The same brought David home even though he was not perfect enough to build the temple of the Lord and Peter though he had cowardly thrice renounced the Lord.
MM: Imperfection had nothing to do with God not allowing David to build the temple.
TV: I heard it preached that what God is looking for is a people who like Job can take whatever comes ones way and bless the Lord despite. This means that Jesus would come to show us that God is worthy of such unfailing trust.
MM: Amen!
TV: What does sin have to do with it? Sin and death meet their match and lost already.
MM: Sin and death have lost already? In what way? People are still sinning and dying.
TV: What does righteousness have to do with it? We are righteous in and through Him by whom sin and death was destroyed.
MM: To what degree are people righteous in and through Jesus? Do people still sin and repent?
TV: So where comes perfection such as you are thinking of it?
MM: I agree with the texts you posted. I suspect, though, that not everybody agrees on what it says and means. I'm not sure if you and I feel the same way about what they say and mean.
TV: We may walk the path down to our goal as did Enoch or we may only have time to take our very first step, but as the promise always comes before the law, ours is not to worry about how far anyone else gets down the path but to step out in faith believing the promise.
MM: What is the promise? What does it say about us and perfection and salvation?
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Skylynx]
#97703
04/03/08 02:52 PM
04/03/08 02:52 PM
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While I was the prodigal daughter I started living with a man I love dearly and we had been together 16 years when I returned to the Adventist faith of my youth. I started going to a small, close-knit, loving SDA church. Quite a dilemma! Though my "boyfriend" wasn't SDA, he was a good man, and I knew God cared about his soul, too. I first made rationalizations, but never felt settled by them. It got so this issue came up to my face every time I prayed. The pastor was anxious for us, but wasn't pushy. I was afraid to ask my friend to marry....don't know why but just seemed impossible to bring it up. Anyway, it got to be such a crisis within me I surrendered it to the Holy Spirit, cried bitter tears of frustration, admitting how impossible it seemed to resolved this. I reached the place where I could admit to God that it was wrong for us to live together out of wedlock, but also imploring His help. As it turned out, I invited the pastor over to see a mural I was doing for the church, and he took the occasion to bring up the topic of marriage while we were all together. The pastor was very skillful in how he brought this up to my boyfriend. As it turned out, my boyfriend had wanted to get married all this time, but was afraid to ask me. From that meeting, we both agreed we wanted to get married, and proceeded to do so that coming week! What I'm trying to say is how the converted person may have some extremely difficult issues in his life to overcome, that he got into long before commitment to the new way of life. He may not be able to change it suddenly, given the complexity of the personalities concerned whose souls are as important as his. Indeed, the law of God is simple black and white, but the tangles people get into over the law can be like Gordian knots. But whenever a person is converted and close to the Lord, his privilege is to surrender to Jesus, confess his helplessness to do right by his own effort, and look for any way to comply as best he can. God will find a way for the honest supplicant. What seems so insurmountable, God can unravel with His providence with miraculous ease at just the right time! Skylynx, thank you for sharing your testimony. I am very glad you guys got married. Funny he was thinking the same thing. Sweet. I could use your advice. I know a couple, both are believers, met at church in fact, both have children, and they are living together out of wedlock. They are also officers at church. One day they asked my opinion about living together out of wedlock. Yikes! I had them read it in the Bible and in the SOP and in the church manual. They agreed living together out of wedlock is condemned in all three sources. But, they prayed about it and decided God was making an exception in their case. That was 2 years ago. The regular pastor is unwilling to do address it. What should the church do about it? Should they ignore it? Or, should they censure them and remove them from holding church offices?
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Tom]
#97706
04/03/08 03:02 PM
04/03/08 03:02 PM
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MM, you asked me: "Now you want me to ignore your theory and just focus on God's character. But how can you truly expect me to follow your advice when it requires me to ignore a part of God's character that makes Him, according to you, wink at sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people to conclude Christianity is a joke?" I've never suggested that God winks at sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people to conclude Christianity is a joke. To attribute this as a "theory" of mine is just wrong. MM, you asked me what I believe. My favorite EGW perfection quote is the following: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48.
The word "therefore" implies a conclusion, an inference from what has gone before. Jesus has been describing to His hearers the unfailing mercy and love of God, and He bids them therefore to be perfect. Because your heavenly Father "is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil" (Luke 6:35), because He has stooped to lift you up, therefore, said Jesus, you may become like Him in character, and stand without fault in the presence of men and angels.
The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden--perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.
With untold love our God has loved us, and our love awakens toward Him as we comprehend something of the length and breadth and depth and height of this love that passeth knowledge. By the revelation of the attractive loveliness of Christ, by the knowledge of His love expressed to us while we were yet sinners, the stubborn heart is melted and subdued, and the sinner is transformed and becomes a child of heaven. God does not employ compulsory measures; love is the agent which He uses to expel sin from the heart. By it He changes pride into humility, and enmity and unbelief into love and faith.
The Jews had been wearily toiling to reach perfection by their own efforts, and they had failed. Christ had already told them that their righteousness could never enter the kingdom of heaven. Now He points out to them the character of the righteousness that all who enter heaven will possess. Throughout the Sermon on the Mount He describes its fruits, and now in one sentence He points out its source and its nature: Be perfect as God is perfect. The law is but a transcript of the character of God. Behold in your heavenly Father a perfect manifestation of the principles which are the foundation of His government.
God is love. Like rays of light from the sun, love and light and joy flow out from Him to all His creatures. It is His nature to give. His very life is the outflow of unselfish love.
"His glory is His children's good;
His joy, His tender Fatherhood."
He tells us to be perfect as He is, in the same manner. We are to be centers of light and blessing to our little circle, even as He is to the universe. We have nothing of ourselves, but the light of His love shines upon us, and we are to reflect its brightness. "In His borrowed goodness good," we may be perfect in our sphere, even as God is perfect in His.
Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God. In Christ dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest "in our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. Thus you will be in harmony with every precept of His law; for "the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul." Psalm 19:7, margin. Through love "the righteousness of the law" will be "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4. This section is from "Thoughts on the Mount of Blessing." I think it's a beautifully balanced quotes, and brings to the forefront the important points. In particular, she defines perfection as being like Jesus, which is great. She also points out the God will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace, which is phenomenal! Just as all will come to Christ in the first place, if they do not resist his drawing love, so will God perfect all those who do not resist Him. She also points out that perfection comes as a result of the heart being melted and subdued by the love of God. This is all wonderful stuff! Tom, I totally agree. Her description of abiding in Jesus is awesome and awe inspiring. But I'm surprised at your reaction to what I posted below: MM: Now you want me to ignore your theory and just focus on God's character. But how can you truly expect me to follow your advice when it requires me to ignore a part of God's character that makes Him, according to you, wink at sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people to conclude Christianity is a joke?"
TE: I've never suggested that God winks at sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people to conclude Christianity is a joke. To attribute this as a "theory" of mine is just wrong. What do you believe about it? Does the Holy Spirit ever wink at certain offensive sinful behaviors in born again believers until He decides the time right to reveal it to them? If so, what is an example of such sinful behavior?
Last edited by Mountain Man; 04/03/08 04:21 PM.
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#97711
04/03/08 03:17 PM
04/03/08 03:17 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, I totally agree. Her description of abiding in Jesus is awesome and awe inspiring. But I'm surprised at your reaction to what I posted below: You shouldn't be surprised. When you make caricatures of people's positions, you shouldn't be surprised that they don't ascribe to such. I'm glad you like the SOP description. I think her outline is a positive way to approach the subject, much better than a behavior-based approach. It seems to me the position you take would either lead to one either doubting whether they were genuinely born again in the first place, or to conclude they have no sinful habits.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Tom]
#97714
04/03/08 04:26 PM
04/03/08 04:26 PM
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TE: You shouldn't be surprised. When you make caricatures of people's positions, you shouldn't be surprised that they don't ascribe to such.
MM: Tom, we have been studying together for years, and I distinctly recall you saying the Holy Spirit waits to reveal certain sinful behaviors to born again believers. You reasoned it is because He is too kind to reveal more than people are ready to know about themselves. But you have yet to provide a legitimate example of such a sin, which leads me to doubt your theory.
So, again, what do you believe about it? Does the Holy Spirit ever wink at certain offensive sinful behaviors in born again believers until He decides the time right to reveal it to them? If so, what is an example of such sinful behavior?
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#97715
04/03/08 05:06 PM
04/03/08 05:06 PM
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TE: It seems to me the position you take would either lead to one either doubting whether they were genuinely born again in the first place, or to conclude they have no sinful habits.
MM: Really? Most people I know, who give up believing Jesus can empower them to go, and sin no more, end up accepting sinning and repenting as normal Christian behavior.
What do you think? Can Jesus empower born again believers to live without sinning? Or, is sinning and repenting normal? Is sanctification a process whereby born again believers gradually outgrow their pre-conversion sinful habits and practices?
The following passages talk about sinful habits and practices. What do you hear? Is she saying we retain certain sinful habits and practices after we are born again, and that the Holy Spirit gradually convicts us to crucify them over the course of a lifetime?
SD 301
The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}
TMK 237
Provision has been made whereby every soul that is struggling under sinful practices may be made free from sin. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). The Christian is not to retain his sinful habits and cherish his defects of character, but he is to be renewed in the spirit of his mind after the divine similitude. Whatever may be the nature of your defects, the Spirit of the Lord will enable you to discern them, and grace will be given you whereby they may be overcome. Through the merits of the blood of Christ you may be a conqueror--yes, more than a conqueror. {TMK 237.2}
AG 240
In humility we shall correct every fault and defect of character; because Christ is abiding in the heart, we shall be fitted up for the heavenly family above. The Christian is not to retain his sinful habits and cherish his defects of character. . . . Whatever may be the nature of your defects, the Spirit of the Lord will enable you to discern them, and grace will be given you whereby they may be overcome. {AG 240.5}
2MCP 540
Every man has corrupt and sinful habits that must be overcome by vigorous warfare. Every soul is required to fight the fight of faith. If one is a follower of Christ, he cannot be sharp in deal, he cannot be hardhearted, devoid of sympathy. He cannot be coarse in his speech. He cannot be full of pomposity and self-esteem. He cannot be overbearing, nor can he use harsh words, and censure and condemn. {2MCP 540.2}
7BC 928
The Word makes the proud humble, the perverse meek and contrite, the disobedient obedient. The sinful habits natural to man are interwoven with the daily practice. But the Word cuts away the fleshly lusts. It is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the mind. It divides the joints and marrow, cutting away the lusts of the flesh, making men willing to suffer for their Lord (MS 42, 1901). {7BC 928.10}
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#97718
04/03/08 05:31 PM
04/03/08 05:31 PM
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I think what John wrote is correct. He said, "if" anyone sin, we have an advocate with the Father. The whole Bible teaches that we can have victory of sin through faith in Christ.
Faith involves a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed by the cross. As we come to know God, and apprehend His true character more clearly, we become transformed into that same image. We become more like Jesus, which is what being perfect is all about.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#97769
04/04/08 02:41 PM
04/04/08 02:41 PM
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Sweden
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TV: That which saved a crucified robber with mere hours to live is the same which saved a man who walked with God for hundreds of years and never tasted death (as far as we know).
MM: Do you doubt Enoch is in heaven?
No, but neither can I prove he is.
TV: The same brought David home even though he was not perfect enough to build the temple of the Lord and Peter though he had cowardly thrice renounced the Lord.
MM: Imperfection had nothing to do with God not allowing David to build the temple.
David himself claimed it was because of the blood he had shed and the wars he had fought. 1 cron 22
TV: I heard it preached that what God is looking for is a people who like Job can take whatever comes ones way and bless the Lord despite. This means that Jesus would come to show us that God is worthy of such unfailing trust.
MM: Amen!
TV: What does sin have to do with it? Sin and death meet their match and lost already.
MM: Sin and death have lost already? In what way? People are still sinning and dying.
Did Jesus not defeat sin on the cross and death in His resurrection?
TV: What does righteousness have to do with it? We are righteous in and through Him by whom sin and death was destroyed.
MM: To what degree are people righteous in and through Jesus? Do people still sin and repent?
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
TV: So where comes perfection such as you are thinking of it?
MM: I agree with the texts you posted. I suspect, though, that not everybody agrees on what it says and means. I'm not sure if you and I feel the same way about what they say and mean.
As the texts speak about growing in these characteristics, I think this is what we should aim for.
TV: We may walk the path down to our goal as did Enoch or we may only have time to take our very first step, but as the promise always comes before the law, ours is not to worry about how far anyone else gets down the path but to step out in faith believing the promise.
MM: What is the promise? What does it say about us and perfection and salvation?
God made promises about blessings and a son to Abraham and Abraham believed God. Therefore God regarded Abraham as righteous. This son that was promised to Abraham is Jesus we learn in Galatian. These promises are offered to us aswell and our part is to believe God.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: vastergotland]
#97771
04/04/08 03:20 PM
04/04/08 03:20 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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TE: You shouldn't be surprised. When you make caricatures of people's positions, you shouldn't be surprised that they don't ascribe to such.
MM: Tom, we have been studying together for years, and I distinctly recall you saying the Holy Spirit waits to reveal certain sinful behaviors to born again believers. You reasoned it is because He is too kind to reveal more than people are ready to know about themselves. But you have yet to provide a legitimate example of such a sin, which leads me to doubt your theory. I don't think about these things the same way you do, so I don't characterize what happens along the lines you are suggesting. I see the process as being along the lines the Dr. Sturges has been laying out. Let's say you love your wife and wish to make her happy. You find out that you've been doing something which she doesn't like, but you didn't realize it. She lets you know, and you decide to quit doing the unwelcome thing. At first you slip, because you have an ingrained habit, and it takes time to undo. The process goes more or less like this: a)You to the unwelcome thing, realize it, stop and apologize. b)Same as a), but you go less far in the process, and apologize more quickly. c)You think about doing the thing, but catch yourself before you do it. d)You no longer think about doing the unwelcome thing. The longer you live with your wife, the better you learn how to please her, and how to avoid doing unwelcome things to her. This seems to me analogous to what happens in our Christian experience. It seems to me you are suggesting that once one is born again, one's behavior is all of a sudden perfect, that there is no learning that goes on. This seems neither Scriptural, nor in line with reality. I'm quite sure in our discussions of the past I've made remarks like the above. I've never suggested that the Holy Spirit winks at sinful behavior that makes Christianity a joke to those who observe it. So, again, what do you believe about it? Does the Holy Spirit ever wink at certain offensive sinful behaviors in born again believers until He decides the time right to reveal it to them? If so, what is an example of such sinful behavior? "Offensive sinful behaviors" is your term, not mine. You'd have to define your term for me to comment on this. Offensive to whom, for example? Would not brushing your teach, causing bad breath, which your wife finds offensive when you try to kiss her count? Where do you draw the line between what's an "offensive sinful behavior" and what isn't? Once again, I need to emphasize that this whole line of discussion I think is majoring in minors. As I've stated a number of times, I believe what's really important is an understanding of God's true character. Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father," yet, my experience is that very few really believe this. Actually, I'm not sure I've even met someone who really believes this, including me. It's easy to say we believe something, but that doesn't mean we really do. When we picture Jesus Christ in our mind's image, and think about His attributes of character, and picture the Father, are they really the same? Ellen White says it would be good for us to spend a thoughtful hour each day contemplating the life of Christ, especially the latter scenes. Why? Well, I'm sure there are many reasons, but one of them must be to better learn what God is really like. The better we understand Christ, the better we understand God. Our whole message is about God. Once we understand this, and communicate how wonderful God is, people will become very interested in hearing about Seventh-day Adventism. "Behold," says the Scripture, "the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee." Isa. 60:2.
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth...
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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