Jesus is the God of the OT. It was Jesus who interacted with people in the OT. It was Jesus who orchestrated the deluge that killed millions of Antediluvians, the fiery destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the deadly plagues of Egypt, the indiscriminate extermination of the Canaanites, etc.

But the question is - Why didn't Jesus explain His "strange" actions more clearly in the OT? Where in the OT does it explain why Jesus destroyed so many sinners? Why does the majority of the OT depict Jesus destroying sinners?

I listed several things He did in the OT that He didn't do while here in the flesh. Surely you agree Jesus didn't do those things while here, right?


Again, this insight cannot mean Jesus revealed or demonstrated everything there is to know about God, or even everything we read about God in the OT. Jesus said certain things about Himself and His Father would have to wait until revealed by the Holy Spirit because the disciples weren't ready to see it:

John
16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.
16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.

What things, which truths, was Jesus unable to reveal because the disciples were unable to bear it? Which things and truths about God did the Holy Spirit reveal later on that Jesus didn't reveal early on? Can you name any of them?


What is explained? How did God destroy sinners Himself? What did He do to them that caused them to die?


If Jesus came to reveal to us what the Father is like, why, then, didn't He explain, while here in the flesh, why and how God destroyed sinners in the OT? All those OT stories cause people to fear God, right? Why didn't Jesus sit His disciples down and explain it to them in plain words?

Instead, Jesus seems to have exacerbated the problem by telling stories of His own that depict God punishing and destroying sinners at the end of time. "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Well, this is my whole point. I don't agree with your interpretation of what happened in the OT precisely because you can't find examples of these things happening in Jesus' life.



That's exactly what it means. "All that man can know about God" has to include, at a very minimum "all that man can know about God which has been revealed in the O.T." How could it possibly not include that?



No, that's not what He said. You inserted "things about Himself and His Father."



That He wasn't going to establish His kingdom on earth in their lifetime.



Of course not. All that man can know of God was revealed in Jesus Christ, so, of course, I can't name any things about God which Jesus did not reveal. If I could name something that Jesus Christ did not reveal, then the statement that all that can be known about God was revealed by Jesus Christ would be false, obviously.



You doubt that Jesus came to reveal to us what the Father is like? You right "if," which implies doubt. Did you really mean "if," or would "since" be better?

Why do you assume Jesus did not explain the things you mentioned?



Many people react that way. Certainly God did not, and does not, want us to be afraid of Him.



How do you know He didn't?



You're free to look at things in this way. I disagree with your perspective.

Tom, you're not addressing my questions. You're simply disagreeing with them. In the following quote Sister White says the execution of justice upon sinners is consistent with - Love your enemies.

GC 541
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. {GC 541.4}

No, MM. I looked again, and I did respond to them. I didn't just disagree with them. I could go through each of them and explain why, if you'd like.

Regarding the GC 541 quote, this is one of my favorite quotes, and I've quoted it for you many times. Later on in the quote she writes:



This whole section is presenting exactly the points I've been making. The exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves. That means that they choose not to be in heaven. They do so because they don't like to be near God's presence, or around those who love God and His principles.

I see this entire description to be in perfect harmony with what Jesus Christ revealed of God during His time here in His life and teachings.

Thank you, Tom, for answering my questions. I'm still do not understand what you believe about it. You seem to be saying God executes justice by manifesting mercy, by withholding judgment, by suspending punishment. But I also hear you saying God will eventually give them up and grant evil angles permission to destroy them. I also seem to recall you saying God has, on a few occasions, resorted to killing sinners Himself, that is, without allowing evil angels to do it (although I don't remember the example you cited).

I told you I agree with what EGW wrote in GC 541-543. For example, she writes:



I believe this.

You're kind of mixing different subjects together. One subject is the final destruction of the wicked. Another is the punishment that comes upon the wicked in this life.

I wrote to you that the actions that God Himself takes in destroying the wicked are laid out in GC 35-37. This is not dealing with the final destruction of the wicked. GC 541-543 and DA 764 deal with this subject.

Basically, I believe that happened was that Satan sought to gain the homage of creatures God had made by deception; specifically, by misrepresenting God's character, by representing God to be such as himself, one who is harsh and self, who relies upon force to get his way, who will torture and kill those who do not do as he says. I believe Jesus Christ came to reveal the truth about what God was really like. He said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."

So if we want to know how God deals with sin and sinners, we need merely look at how Jesus acted, and there's the answer.

Regarding the final judgment, EGW emphasizes, over and over and over again, that their destruction is due to their own choice. She writes that their exclusion from heaven is "voluntary" with themselves, that their destruction is not due to an imposed act of power on the part of God (she uses the "arbitrary," but that "imposed" is the intended meaning, as opposed to "capricious" is clear from the context).

I see that sin is a hideous monster that God is doing all that He can to save us from. I see that sin results in our destruction because it unfits us from being able to live with God, nor with those who love His principles.

I do not see that God teaches that He will burn us alive and kill us if we do not do what He says. I cannot see how such a thought can help but echo the lies that Satan has been telling about God, and result in a negative spiritual experience.

When you quote a reference, without explaining what it says and means to you personally, it leaves me wondering what you believe. I do not get the same thing out of them that you do.

1. You seem to be saying God executes justice by manifesting mercy, by withholding judgment, by suspending punishment.

2. You also seem to be saying there are times when God gives them up and grants evil angels permission to destroy them.

3. You also seem to be saying God has, on a few occasions, resorted to killing sinners Himself.

4. You also seem to be saying God handles the punishment and destruction of sinners in two different ways at two different times - 1) During probationary time, and 2) In the lake of fire at the end of time.

You often quote whole reams of SOP texts without any comment whatsoever. However, I appreciate your comment here, since I've so often made it to you.

In this particular case, this particular text, I've explained to you at least a dozen times. So there's no need to wonder what it means to me. It means to me what I've explained it to mean the times I've explained it.



By manifesting mercy, yes. EGW says God's actions are "merciful."

Withholding judgment, no. I don't know where you got that idea from.

Suspending punishment, also no. I don't know what you're talking about. You assertion makes no sense. How would justice be executed by suspending punishment. Could you explain your thought here please? How are you reading what I've written to suggest this?



I've quoted this a number of times.



I dislike your wording. I like hers.



If you mean by this that God acted violently, I didn't say that. I've maintained that God is not violent. I don't believe violence has any part in His kingdom. God does not use force to get His way. It is not a principle of His government.





Yes, I agree with this. During probationary time, no sinners are destroyed (in a permanent sense). In the final judgment, they are. So this is quite different.

Tom, do you mean God executes justice in a merciful manner, that when He executes judgment upon sinners He does it in a merciful way, like mercy killings? If so, then I totally agree. When God gave evil angels permission to use Romans to kill the Jews in AD 68 He gave specific marching orders - what they could and could not do. He didn't abandon them to the unbridled whims of Satan. There were certain things Satan could not do. The judgments of God were mixed and mingled with mercy. Do you agree?

Also, please give me an example of God acting in a nonviolent way to kill sinners Himself. Thank you.

Finally, what else is different about the judgments of God that befall sinners before and after the millennium?