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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #98034
04/10/08 02:54 AM
04/10/08 02:54 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
It was the mercy of God that thousands should suffer, to prevent the necessity of visiting judgments upon millions.


This seems like God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #98052
04/10/08 04:23 PM
04/10/08 04:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, when you have the time, please address each one of my posts. They are important to me. Thank you.

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #98053
04/10/08 04:25 PM
04/10/08 04:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
It was the mercy of God that thousands should suffer, to prevent the necessity of visiting judgments upon millions.


This seems like God.

But what about the rest of the quote? Does it sound like God to command people to slay thousands of sinners with a sword?

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #98087
04/11/08 04:49 AM
04/11/08 04:49 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
If the choice was for thousands to die as opposed to millions dying, it seems to me that thousands dying is better.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #98103
04/11/08 04:47 PM
04/11/08 04:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Posts: 22,256
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TE: If the choice was for thousands to die as opposed to millions dying, it seems to me that thousands dying is better.

MM: Is that how God operates? Does He command people to kill thousands of sinners? If so, when did Jesus demonstrate this aspect of God's character while He was here in the flesh?

PS - Tom, when you have the time, please address each one of my posts. They are important to me. Thank you.

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #98110
04/11/08 06:02 PM
04/11/08 06:02 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
TE: I see God acting as Jesus Christ did. I see the description of Ellen White in GC chapter 1 as being a clear description as to how God acts in regards to the destruction of those who cast off His protection during this life. I don't understand why there would be any difficulty in understanding this.

MM: 1) Jesus never acted here the way He did in 68 AD. 2)


You don't see that this is extremely improbably on the face of it? God says, "I change not," but you would have Jesus changing the way He acted?

 Quote:
I see GC chapters 39-42 as a description of how Jesus will act during the finals days of earth's history.


Clearly. The question is if He is acting in some new way, or according to the same principles He acted according to while here in the flesh.

 Quote:
MM: Consider the following insights:


You wrote this twice. I considered them.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #98111
04/11/08 06:10 PM
04/11/08 06:10 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
The Bible and the SOP describe two sources of fire at the end of time - 1) Fire from heaven above, and 2) Fire from earth below. The same fires that burn up the rubbish of earth will burn up the flesh of sinners. It is literal fire. The same Lord who prevented saints from burning up can prevent sinners from burning up before they have been punished according to their words and works. There is nothing cruel or unusual about it.


So if I took your flesh, and held it to a flame, and were able to heal they physical damage so that you could experience the pain without being destroyed, and repeated this process over and over again, you would say there was nothing cruel or unusual about this?

This idea that God will burn people alive so they can suffer pain and uses supernatural power so they suffer some more is horrendous.

 Quote:
How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom. Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!"

Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11.
Page 536

What would be gained to God should we admit that He delights in witnessing unceasing tortures; that He is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom He holds in the flames of hell? Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love? It is urged that the infliction of endless misery upon the wicked would show God's hatred of sin as an evil which is ruinous to the peace and order of the universe. Oh, dreadful blasphemy! As if God's hatred of sin is the reason why it is perpetuated. For, according to the teachings of these theologians, continued torture without hope of mercy maddens its wretched victims, and as they pour out their rage in curses and blasphemy, they are forever augmenting their load of guilt. God's glory is not enhanced by thus perpetuating continually increasing sin through ceaseless ages. (GC 535, 536)


Your idea is similar in principle to that of an eternal hell, in terms of God's acting to torture His victims. The only difference between your view and the one she is arguing against is one of duration.

The fact that you can even conceive God of being possible of acting in such a way is distressing.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #98112
04/11/08 06:27 PM
04/11/08 06:27 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
MM: Have you considered the fact God supernaturally sustained Jesus so that He endure unimaginable agony and anguish? He suffered as sinners will suffer in the end. If God had to supernaturally sustain Jesus so that He could suffer in proportion to the sins He bore, it stands to reason the same will be necessary for sinners in the lake of fire. Here is how it is described:


None of the descriptions had God keeping Jesus alive so that He could torture Him. The pain which Christ suffered was not due to an arbitrary action on God's part (i.e., an imposed action of God's upon Christ) but because He bore our sin. Sin has death wrapped up in it.

In your view there is no inherent relation between sin and death. You see death as coming about because God kills people He doesn't approve of, as opposed to being the inevitable result of the choice of sin. You think God arbitrarily caused pain/suffering/death to Christ, so that He could avoid having to arbitrarily causing pain/suffering/death upon us, as the arbitrary punishment of an arbitrary law. But none of these things are arbitrary. Everything that happens is the natural result of a cause.

The law of life is to receive from God in order to give. Those who adhere to this principle live, because this principle is life.

The law of sin and death is the reverse. One receives from God not to give back to Him, or to others, but for self alone. Such a choice can only result in pain, suffering and death. This pain, suffering and death is not due to something God is doing to people, but due to something sin causes.

In your view, one becomes of necessity afraid of God. How can you not be afraid of someone who will torture and kill you if you don't do what He says? This is religion based on authority and fear.

What I am suggesting is that sin kills, and God is working to save us from this deadly peril. He does so by revealing the truth to us; the truth about Himself, the truth about us, and the truth about sin.

The truth about sin is that it kills. The truth about us is that we don't know what God is really like; we need to learn, and we need to be healed from the effects of our unbelief. The truth about God is that He really is like Jesus Christ.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #98175
04/14/08 04:36 PM
04/14/08 04:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: If the choice was for thousands to die as opposed to millions dying, it seems to me that thousands dying is better.

MM: Is that how God operates? Does He command people to kill thousands of sinners?

If so, when did Jesus demonstrate this aspect of God's character while He was here in the flesh?

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #98176
04/14/08 04:40 PM
04/14/08 04:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: Everything that happens is the natural result of a cause.

MM: Does this include all those times God commanded people to kill sinners? Does it include all those times God killed sinners Himself?

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