Mark, sorry for making you uncomfortable. Can you tell I am an American? Ha! You're right though, in spite of the many good reasons Saddam needed to be deposed, the USA is not altogether altruistic in her motives. But it is still far from speaking like a dragon. Yes, the road to perdition is long, and at times imperceptible, but the USA will eventually speak like a dragon - that is, she will enforce Sunday Laws. Until then I, as an American (not to mention an American veteran as well), cannot entertain ideas that suggest she is anything other than the lamb described in prophecy.

My position on the war in Iraq is this... (I wont give SOP references here because I already did on that other thread)

1. The Spirit of Prophecy says clearly that at times, God wanted His people to go to war. So although this doesnt automatically mean that He wants the USA to go to war, it does mean that we should not jump to the conclusion that every war is wrong or "of the Devil". It means we should keep our minds open to the fact that some wars may actually be "Just".

2. The Spirit of Prophecy says we shouldnt get into politics because we really never know what the true motives or position is, of those in power. So really, none of us knows the full and complete reasons this war was waged.

I have read lots of materials by Texe Marrs. Texe tends to promote the idea that every single thing the Government does is because of the "Illuminati". It is like "the sky is falling, the sky is falling". It is like the Time Setting problem. If we begin to attribute every single thing the US Government does as being sinister and "something to start the Sunday Laws" ... pretty soon, people will not listen to us anymore. We should try to think the best, until and unless we have compelling evidence on something, telling us otherwise.

3. We are told in the Spirit of Prophecy that we should be very careful in our church papers -not to attack the government because it will be assumed later that the entire body of believers feels this way about the Government and will be used against us later.

...and just personally, I think that if nothing is done about this terrorism problem, it will grow worse and worse. It must be stopped. It was actually the British Tony Blair who was always warning about Saddam Hussein. It isnt that the "evil USA Government" just dreamed this up in order to be able to do something sinister. It's the President's job to protect the citizens of the USA and that is what he is doing. And not just for the USA but for the world. Unless someone shows me some really compelling evidence otherwise, that is what I will continue to believe.

I think it is a bad idea to become a bunch of little "Texe Marrs" running around saying "the sky is falling" "the sky is falling" ... every time something happens, or every time there is a war... because if so, when the sky really IS falling... nobody will believe us.... just like Time Setting. We don't have to become Sensationalists. Doing that will cause us to lose our credibility.

By the way, you should watch the documentary about 8:00 or so tonight on the "History Channel" about the torurous regime of Saddam Hussein.

In the Spirit of Prophecy we are told that there have been times when things were about to become very "hot" and the Sunday laws were going to become a reality but that God allowed various things to intercept... so that men would have more time to repent. How do we know that some of these wars might not be curtailing the start of the Sunday Laws rather than the other way around? How do we know who is really behind these terrorists acts at the very top? We already know about the concept of "Order out of Chaos" -where anarchy is purposely started for politcal reasons. And how do we know if that perhaps President Bush waging war against Iraq isnt actually curbing the start of the Sunday Laws? The point is... we DONT KNOW.


...and as a side note, the Pope is against the war on Iraq.. and so was the evil one world order United Nations of course... http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/iraq/20030114_522.html

whats with that former Iraqi deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz being a Catholic anyway?


----------


I forgot to add this part... The thing about our relationship to the Government ... I view it as the same way Ellen White said we should have treated the Temperance Club back in her day. Just because they didnt have light upon all that we did... this didnt mean that they therefore had no redeeming qualities at all. We shouldve united with them in whatever way we could, without sacrificing principle... in order that people dont view us as a set of fanatics:

Temperance, page 217, paragraph 5
Chapter Title: Our Relationship to Other Temperance Groups
A Sensible Attitude Toward Other Organizations. --The temperance question is to be respected by every true Christian, and especially should it receive the sanction of all who profess to be reformers. But there will be those in the church that will not show wisdom in the treatment of this subject. Some will show marked disrespect to any reforms arising from any other people besides those of their own faith; in this they err by being too exclusive.

Temperance, page 222, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: Our Relationship to Other Temperance Groups
2. Co-operating With the W.C.T.U.
An Organization With Which We Can Unite. -- The Woman's Christian Temperance Union is an organization with whose efforts for the spread of temperance principles we can heartily unite. The light has been given me that we are not to stand aloof from them, but, while there is to be no sacrifice of principle on our part, as far as possible we are to unite with them in laboring for temperance reforms. . . . We are to work with them when we can, and we can assuredly do this on the question of utterly closing the saloon.

Temperance, page 222, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: Our Relationship to Other Temperance Groups
As the human agent submits his will to the will of God, the Holy Spirit will make the impression upon the hearts of those to whom he ministers. I have been shown that we are not to shun the W.C.T.U. workers. By uniting with them in behalf of total abstinence, we do not change our position regarding the observance of the seventh day, and we can show our appreciation of their position regarding the subject of temperance. By opening the door, and inviting them to unite with us on the temperance question, we secure their help along temperance lines; and they, by uniting with us, will hear new truths which the Holy Spirit is waiting to impress upon hearts.-- Review and Herald, June 18, 1908.

Temperance, page 225, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Our Relationship to Other Temperance Groups
Christ's one purpose when upon this earth was to reflect the light of His righteousness to those in darkness. The W.C.T.U. workers have not the whole truth on all points, but they are doing a good work.--Manuscript 31, 1911.

[ May 04, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Claudia Thompson ]

Claudia, I totally agree with your comments here. But mostly I appreciated the rational way you presented them. Very winsome. Thank you.

"I do not know what called out these remarks, only the thought that many will look away from present duties, present comfort and blessings, and be borrowing trouble in regard to the future crisis. This will be making a time of trouble beforehand, and we will receive no grace for any such anticipated troubles. Rejoice in God always. To-day praise God for his grace, and continue to praise him every day; and then when the scenes of sore conflicts come, having learned the lesson of holy confidence, of blessed trust, we place our hands in the hands of Christ, our feet on the rock, and we are secure from storm and tempest." RH.1884-03-25.005

How might this apply to what we tell the world regarding the Iraq conflict, and it’s "connection to fulfilled prophecy?"

I touched the iraq war and its place in prophecy at the following link if anyone is interested. This was presented on March 22, 2003 in the midst of the event.

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/documents/sermons/sermons-kir/kir-iraq.php3

LK

I know I don't post here all that often - it seems much of the discussion is book quoting which is often too detailed and goes over my head. Never fear, the Bible still comes first.

That said, I think there may be too much emphasis on the "Sunday Law". Not that I would ever condone it, being a Sabbath-keeper, but that in keeping our eyes peeled for a Sunday law, we might miss some *other* very important events.

I'm not going to dwell on whether or not the recent war was good or bad, but there are some events that have cropped up from it...

- Tightened internal security and policies for the general public.
I had someone come into the store I work at hoping to get the metal tip point of a pencil-compass because airport security confiscated it as "a dangerous weapon". While this security will help quell some of the world's evil, it will also serve very effectively a government's unintentionally-evil intent - with more and more security in place, the people are more easily "policed" which means when the remnant becomes a target for their policing. Other examples can be the thumb-printing required for a drivers' lisence in Texas, or the "Smart" all-in-one cards becoming more popular in Europe and being strongly considered by North America.

- Intolerance and Tolerance

A Confusing statement... there's a world "intolerance" being driven into us that "Terrorists are the enemy" and rightly so... but this "us vs. them" and "we hate the enemy" mentailty is really starting to show, and what will happen when "those pesky Bible-thumpers" become the Enemy #1 (and in places like N. Korea and others, Christians of all kinds are being persecuted HEAVILY - even to the death.) It is a means to an end.

And what did I mean by "tolerance"? Well, notice how many gay weddings have been happening in the media lately? Religious acceptance is another big topic these days. Blend, mix... anything to try and live together peacefully. End the anger by accepting what was considered "wrong" as "hey, we're different but it's OK!" Funny that Christianity is the only religion *really* under attack in the world today. Even Satanists (oops.. surely Wiccans and other Witchcraft/Magick/etc. aren't Evil... after all, Harry Potter's a nice guy...) are living the easy life these days. Harry Potter has really made witchraft popular and it's all okay because kids are reading for the first time since TV took over.


I guess if there's one point I'd like people to get out of this lengthy post is that of "birth pains". A local pastor said it best;

Birthing pains are a sign of what? An impending birth! How do you know the birth is getting closer? The FREQUENCY and INTENSITY of the birth pains become higher!

So as more and more fighting breaks out over the earth, crime becomes more violent, national issues become more urgent, more diseases appear out of nowhere, more disasters occur - natural or man-made.... by the time of the end, the Birthing Pains will be extremely intense and VERY frequent and we should be prepared for that early.

I have to wonder.... when God tells His remnant people to flee... where on earth will we go??? Good thing he'll be watching over us no matter what!

Good post, Markell!

One event has a domino effect to another event.

The 911 event led to the Afganistan event and then to the Iraq event. What happens yet still remains to be seen.

And yes, 911, was a major event that affected our personal privacy as seen in the increased security at our airports, which in some cases as you already mentioned in your post is rather extreme, but tells us that the road is being paved for the so-called easier appearance of new enemies.

And frequency is the watchword, therefore, let us not be caught off guard.

People have long fabricated "prophetic warnings" from many different wars, in many different eras of time.

Surely there is inspired counsel to tell us when we are crossing over the line to bringing a day of trouble before it has actually arrived?

I am a bit late to this discussion through no fault of my own (just joined yesterday) and I have a couple of points for your consideration.

First, when has the U.S. ever been "lamblike?" It came to power by genocide of Native Americans, and the enslavement of Africans. In it's short history (in comparison to other nations) the U.S. has a very violent, exploitive existence......

Secondly, the second war in Iraq was necessary for what? Mr. Hussein did not assist in the 9/11 attacks, in fact Bin Laden is still walking around freely. The U.S,. decided arrogantly (in my opinion) to overthrow Mr. Hussein for the sake of self-interest. There are other dictators in the world who are still in power and the U.S. is completely ignoring them....

So from where I sit here in Alabama, this war is not a fulfilment of prophecy.....