What makes you think this is an imperfection?


Apparently not; people are still sinning and dying.


By quoting these two passages do you mean to answer my question with a No? That is, in and through Jesus they are righteous, they do not sin and repent?


Are you saying if we believe God promised Abraham that Jesus would be his son that we are perfect and saved?

TE: I've never suggested that the Holy Spirit winks at sinful behavior that makes Christianity a joke to those who observe it.

MM: This may explain why we have been speaking past each other. This is the only thing I have been asking about. Your comment above seems to indicate you believe the Holy Spirit does not wink at the types of offensive sinful behaviors in born again believers that cause people around them to despise the Gospel. Am I hearing you right?

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TE: It seems to me you are suggesting that once one is born again, one's behavior is all of a sudden perfect, that there is no learning that goes on. This seems neither Scriptural, nor in line with reality.

MM: What do you mean by "perfect"? Does it include not behaving in a way that causes people to conclude Christianity is a joke? Which behaviors belong in this category?

What do you mean by "learning"? Does it include gradually outgrowing sinful behaviors that cause people to conclude Christianity is a joke? Which behaviors belong in this category?

I realize you feel we shouldn't focus on sinful behaviors, but it's important to me to understand it properly. Jesus said, By their fruits ye shall them. People watch us and form opinions about Jesus.

The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts us of sin and of righteousness. In the past you've explained to me how the Holy Spirit waits after we are born again to reveal certain sinful behaviors to us until we are ready to confront, to confess, and to crucify them.

First you named polygamy as an example of a category of sinful behavior the Holy Spirit waits to reveal. Then you named bad breath from not brushing teeth as another category. You've also named believing in eternal torment in hell. But I'm still not clear what to believe about it.

What does it mean - Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not. Does it mean they stop committing some sins but they still commit others? If so, what is an example of a sin they might continue to commit after they are born again? Do they commit this sin without realizing it? If so, why aren't they aware of the fact they are sinning?

Please quote something I've said. What I remember saying is this:

a)We would be better off concentrating on God's character than trying to parse fine details about behavior.
b)Your theory that man cannot commit a sin in ignorance, if this sin is a violation of the last 6 commandments, has no basis.



Perfect behavior would mean without fault.



That would depend on the person. Some people would conclude Christianity is a joke because you don't get high. Perhaps you could ask your question in a way which is not pejorative, and not vague. What precisely do you have in mind?



Yes, this is my question to you.



You don't know what learning means?



Again, the first question is pejorative and vague. The second question is what I'm asking you.



Yes, you do seem fixated on this.



Before we are born again, we would hardly be interested in confronting certain sins, would we? I mean, we wouldn't even understand them. Say, for example, the sin of being ostentatious in the giving of tithes, as the Pharisees were. Before being born again, there's a good chance we wouldn't be going to church, so we wouldn't have any church-going related sins to confess or crucify. There's a whole host of spiritual pride sins that we have no inkling of before being born again.



No, I listed this as a sin which a man commits ignorantly. I did this to demonstrate that your theory that man cannot ignorantly break the last six commandments is incorrect.



No, I didn't list this as an example. I asked you a question, which you haven't answered, which is what behavior should be included in your list. I asked if this qualified.



The example of believing in eternal torment goes to the point of misunderstanding God's character. Your concern is over misrepresenting God, making Christianity into a joke, by one's behavior. I've asked you what about misunderstanding God's character, and misspeaking of it. Now mightn't that cause a person to view God in a negative light? Isn't that as important to correct as a wrong behavior?



Believe about what?



It means that it is not characteristic of a Christian to sin. It's very simple. A Christian should be like Christ. It's like Ellen White wrote, that if we are born of God, as a child of His, we can't help but be like Him.

The reason focusing on God's character is important is because that's the issue over which Satan was able to get angels and men to fall. In order to get at a solution to a problem, we need to understand the root of the problem.

Satan broke the law of life, which is to receive from God in order to give that which we have receive either back to God or to others. Instead, he created a new law, the law of sin and death, which is to receive from God, and not give from that which one has received. Adding to that, his law is to take that which belongs others for oneself.

Satan wanted to win converts to his side. In order to do that, it was necessary for him to lie. He lied about God's character, representing Him as such a one as himself; severe, harsh, not having the best interest of those under his power in mind, as using force to get his way. Satan is like this, but God is not. However, many believe that God is.

In order to demonstrate what God is really like, God sent His Son. Jesus Christ revealed God to be kind, gentle, compassionate, forgiving, courteous, patient, having the best interest of his subjects in mind, and not using force to get His way. Indeed, rather than use force, God, in Christ, submitted to force, even to the point of death.

God, while being all-powerful, does not use His power to save Himself, but to save others. He is totally self-sacrificing, totally good. In Christ, we see the truth about God.

As long as our understanding of God's character is in error, it doesn't matter how good our behavior looks to others. We're missing the point as long as this behavior is our focus. We're scratching where it doesn't itch.

David wants to build God a temple. God decides David is not fit for the job. David later says that it was because of his many wars. What other word would you use to describe the event?So since nothing recogniseable appeared to have happened, the cross was an non-event? How much more would this speak about 1844? Truly nothing appareant happened there. I think we are agreed that sinning is not in God's plan for any human. Yet we both also know that sinning is in the experience of all humans. We get righteousness through Jesus because that is the only source of righteousness we have. Selfrighteousness deserves its ill repute. Being granted Jesus righteousness also leads to beholding Him and thus being changed into His image. Wether that also leads to a life without sin I do not know, I have never seen or experienced such a thing.I am saying that if we do as Abraham did and believe God's promises to us, we are saved. What more is required of us?

God commanded David to fight and defeat his enemies. In so doing, he honored and gloried God. There was nothing sinful or defective or imperfect about David killing people in battle. "The battle belongs to the Lord." True, he was not allowed to build the temple because his hands were stained with the blood of war, but it wasn't because his heart or character was stained with sin.


Neither Jesus' death on the cross nor His moving into the most holy place in 1844 prevents people from sinning and dying. This is painfully apparent. Nevertheless, on the cross Jesus earned the right to own our sin and second death. At the end of time He will eliminate sin and death in the lake of fire.


If Jesus cannot empower people to cease sinning, to mature daily in the fruits of the Spirit - wouldn't that mean Satan is right about the law of God? If Satan is right, if obeying the law is not possible, why did Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross?


What is God promising us? What are we required to believe?

Not even when he used a war to depose an old friend who had the bad luck of being the husband of the kings mistress?So are you saying that after the final judgment when God has shown that people can be trusted to choose Him rather than sin by their on free choise, that God will then continue to remove the further possibility of choise by making sin impossible? The cross was the decisive victory. All battles since then have not had the option of chainging the outcome of the war. I think the bottom line here is, what is the controversy about. Is satans accusation that the law cannot be kept or is it that God is not who He says He is? In the lists of heroes of faith we find in the scriptures, how did the individuals overcome? By keeping the law or by trusting in God. That Jesus is the anointed one of promise who came, Son of God to reveal who God is, to provide adoption into Gods family to whosoever wills and believes.

Common on, Thomas. You're ignoring the point. Do you agree with what I posted above?


No, I'm not saying God will eliminate free will when He eliminates our sins and second death in the lake of fire. Do you agree with what I posted above?


Satan's accusations mean God is not trustworthy because He insists we obey a law that cannot be obeyed perfectly. To trust God is to obey His law. Do you think Jesus can empower people to obey the law perfectly?

What you wrote goes beyond scripture.Yes and no. While sin and death will be finally eliminated at the end of this age, I still maintain that both were defeated 2000 years ago. As Paul wrote:

55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"
56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord. Do you or do you know anyone or have you heard about anyone other than Jesus who has ever obeyed the law perfectly? Read the eleventh chapter of Hebrews. What characterises all of these people who appears in the annals? Was it the perfect keeping of the law which let Rahab and Samson join Moses and Abraham in the same list?

TV: What you wrote goes beyond scripture.

MM: How so?

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TV: Yes and no. While sin and death will be finally eliminated at the end of this age, I still maintain that both were defeated 2000 years ago. As Paul wrote:

MM: Isn't Paul talking about the day Jesus returns? Also, in what way did Jesus defeat sin and death on the cross?

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TV: Do you or do you know anyone or have you heard about anyone other than Jesus who has ever obeyed the law perfectly? Read the eleventh chapter of Hebrews. What characterises all of these people who appears in the annals? Was it the perfect keeping of the law which let Rahab and Samson join Moses and Abraham in the same list?

MM: Being perfect (not committing known sins and maturing the fruits of the Spirit) is conditional, right? People are perfect if and when they are abiding in Jesus. If and when they are not abiding in Jesus they are not perfect. At least that's how John and Paul and Peter describe it.

So, yes, there are plenty of people who are perfect, but only while they are abiding in Jesus. Will it be obvious to us that they are abiding in Jesus, that are experiencing perfection? Not always. Jesus went mostly unnoticed the first 30 years of His life. Yes, there were people who realized He was righteous and blameless, but most people paid no attention.