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Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #98260
04/16/08 01:11 AM
04/16/08 01:11 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
they feel the exception to the rule only applies to older people, not to younger people.

He agrees his approach is not biblical, but he argues that times are different, that what was right in biblical times is not right nowadays.

A basic belief of this church, from the pastor on down, seems to be, "Yes, the Bible says that, but it doesn't apply to me."

Unless the pastor gets himself a backbone soon, there will be many more instances of "yeah, but" theology. Many lives will be wrecked, for this life and the next.

Jesus told Peter, when you are converted, take care of my sheep. We need more shepherds like that.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #98282
04/17/08 06:28 AM
04/17/08 06:28 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The people who decided to go to different churches did so to avoid their own teens being influenced to live with someone else out of wedlock. I suppose this could be perceived as critical, judgmental, intolerant, unaccepting, holier-than-thou, and unChristlike. I don't know. Perhaps they are simply being protective parents.
The action assumes that the teens do not know each other and are not friends and that they therefore will stop meeting each other just because they will no longer see each other in church. Maybe that is true, but somehow I doubt that two youth could become and remain leaders in church if all their peers only saw fit to see them in church related things. Therefore I would add naïve to your perceptions list above.
 Quote:

The cohabitating parents whose teen daughter is living with her boyfriend out of wedlock are complaining to the pastor because they feel the exception to the rule only applies to older people, not to younger people.
Sillness. Either cohabiting is ok or it is not ok. There is no such thing as cohabiting only being ok after you had your XX birthday.
 Quote:

The pastor feels like doing nothing is doing the right thing. He believes the church family should love them and accept them and that this will lead them to eventually do the right thing. He agrees his approach is not biblical, but he argues that times are different, that what was right in biblical times is not right nowadays.
What, in your opinion, is the biblical responce that this pastor should be giving?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: vastergotland] #98286
04/17/08 03:55 PM
04/17/08 03:55 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thomas, yes, naive should be added to the list. But what more can caring parents do? The two cohabitating teens are high school graduates. They both work fulltime. So, I doubt they have much time to see the youth during the rest of the week. I'm also a youth leader and I rarely see the youth outside of the Sabbath hours. Schedules just never seem to allow it. In spite of the fact most of the youth and leaders only see each other on the Sabbath, they seem to benefit from atttending class and church on the Sabbath.

I'm not sure if there is no difference between what is lawful for teens and what is lawful for adults, even if the adults only high school graduates and teens themselves. In the USA, being 18 years old changes the rules, different laws apply. They are considered an adult, not a youth. However, the law of God does not make acceptions for living and sleeping together out of wedlock, no matter how old or young.

A good thing to do in cases involving office-holding church members, who are living together out of wedlock, is to place them on probation. While on probation they are not allowed to hold office. During probation, caring people should meet with them and show from the Word of God the truth about marriage, fornication, and adultery.

If they refuse to comply with the Word of God they should be removed from holding membership. It should be explained to them that this adminstrative position in no way means they are not loved or prayed for. What it does mean, though, is that the Church believes their mortal souls are in danger of hellfire, that if they do not repent and comply with the Word of God they are not abiding in Jesus, they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #98304
04/17/08 08:20 PM
04/17/08 08:20 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Thomas, yes, naive should be added to the list. But what more can caring parents do? The two cohabitating teens are high school graduates. They both work fulltime. So, I doubt they have much time to see the youth during the rest of the week. I'm also a youth leader and I rarely see the youth outside of the Sabbath hours. Schedules just never seem to allow it. In spite of the fact most of the youth and leaders only see each other on the Sabbath, they seem to benefit from atttending class and church on the Sabbath.
Well, the parents could talk with their children and reason with them. If they understand the concept and accept it, there appears no greater reasons for worry irrespective of whom they meet in church. If they either do not understand or do understand but do note accept it, moving has solved nothing of substantial import. I think the parents were just out to make some kind of statement.

Concerning full shedshules, how often do you meet your good friends? Do you only spend time with them in church and occationally the odd friday evening or would you acctually make room in your week for them?
 Quote:

I'm not sure if there is no difference between what is lawful for teens and what is lawful for adults, even if the adults only high school graduates and teens themselves. In the USA, being 18 years old changes the rules, different laws apply. They are considered an adult, not a youth. However, the law of God does not make acceptions for living and sleeping together out of wedlock, no matter how old or young.
I know some things change in the view of the law, but I was speculating on how things might be from Gods perspective.
One question that could be worth considering here is, is wedlock in Gods perspective the same as we think about with the sharing of pledges in front of a priest or cosigning a document at the municipal offices if the wedding is civil? Could someone be married in Gods view without having taken either of these two culturally agreed steps to marriage?
 Quote:

A good thing to do in cases involving office-holding church members, who are living together out of wedlock, is to place them on probation. While on probation they are not allowed to hold office. During probation, caring people should meet with them and show from the Word of God the truth about marriage, fornication, and adultery.
Sure, if the same is also enforced against idolaters, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers, immoral persons, revilers, etc.
How many men or women could we find in church who are fit to throw stones at this couple, remembering Jesus words that only he or she who is without sin may throw the first one.
Could we end up with a church void of officials when all who have character flaws are sorted out?
 Quote:

If they refuse to comply with the Word of God they should be removed from holding membership. It should be explained to them that this adminstrative position in no way means they are not loved or prayed for. What it does mean, though, is that the Church believes their mortal souls are in danger of hellfire, that if they do not repent and comply with the Word of God they are not abiding in Jesus, they will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: vastergotland] #98310
04/17/08 08:49 PM
04/17/08 08:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Regarding the church members who are living in open sin, who hold church office, and who have no intention of livng harmony with God's will (they do not plan to get married in any way, shape, or form, nor do they consider themselves married in the eyes of God, they simply do not believe the marriage institution applies to them) - at any rate, Paul wrote that we should not keep casual company with them, that we should encourage them conform to God's will.

Whether or not the parents who are attending others churches to avoid the influence of the unwed couples at our church are doing so for evil or wrong reasons, I don't know. Their motives seem right and pure, non-judgmental. But who can read motive? Surely there is a Christlike way to follow Paul's counsel; otherwise, why would it be in the Bible?

Do the youth leaders meet with the youth during the week? Most of us don't do it very often. Not because we're unwilling to, but mostly because the youth are so busy with their own lives they don't have time to. When I served as a youth pastor I made dates with the youth. That worked out pretty good, especially if I bought the pizza and pop.

Would there be anyone left qualified to serve as church officers if all open sins were dealt with in the manner I described above? I can answer for our local church family - Yes! In the past we have had to deal open sin in the form of Sabbath breaking, smoking and drinking, spousal abuse, child abuse, and pornography. Until recently, under the current pastor, the church has had pretty good success with members giving up their open sins.

What to do?

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Mountain Man] #98311
04/17/08 08:57 PM
04/17/08 08:57 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Pornography was an open sin in your church previously?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: vastergotland] #98313
04/17/08 09:10 PM
04/17/08 09:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Yep. A member felt there was nothing wrong with it or self abuse (if you know what I mean). His wife, who was not a member, complained to the pastor, and he dealt with it. He was placed on probation, and this action made him rethink his course. In time, he came to the conclusion pornography is wrong, and so is self abuse. It was an awesome end of a bad lifestyle. His wife is still not a believer, though.

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Rick H] #132429
04/06/11 07:05 PM
04/06/11 07:05 PM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,237
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Quote:
So with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit our hearts and minds are cleansed and we are reborn in the Spirit and have the mind of Christ?

I am more inclined to believe that when self dies we are born again and then the Holy Spirit begins empowering us from within to imitate the holy example of Jesus. Here's the formula, the sequence:

Isaiah
1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

First - Cease to do evil (crucify self, the old man)
Second - Learn to do well (imitate the holy example of Jesus)

2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 Peter
2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:


But is any of it from self, or all the Holy Spirit's transformation after we are led to accept that path...?


It is from the new born again man as the old man of sin has died, we are able to choose and decide for ourselves. But with a mind of Christ within, we choose to do good...

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: Rick H] #132552
04/10/11 03:40 PM
04/10/11 03:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I agree. But many people believe we are born again first and then we begin a lifelong process of gradually outgrowing our sins and thereby becoming less and less sinful. On the contrary, Ellen wrote:

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}

Re: Can sinning be overcome.... [Re: vastergotland] #135430
07/28/11 01:16 PM
07/28/11 01:16 PM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,237
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: vastergotland
Pornography was an open sin in your church previously?
Lust and Sexual sins have always been problems with open sin even in the early church.

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