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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Tom]
#98047
04/10/08 02:10 PM
04/10/08 02:10 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: If a person is born again, he is ready to go to heaven, by definition. So there are no sins that need to be discovered that would prevent them from going to heaven. This isn't even looking at things the right way. We don't get to heaven by discovering sins but by faith in Christ.
MM: I agree. There are no unconfessed, uncrucified sins that will prevent born again believers from going to heaven. Why? Because they were revealed, confessed, and crucified in light of the cross during the process that led to rebirth.
TE: You're assuming that unconfessed, uncrucified sins are what prevent people from going to heaven. It's much simpler than that. What prevents people from going to heaven is not being right with God. If we're not right with God, we will have no desire to be in heaven. The exclusion from heaven of the wicked is voluntary with themselves.
Unconfessed, uncrucified sins are a symptom, not a cause. Tom, you wrote, "If a person is born again, he is ready to go to heaven, by definition. So there are no sins that need to be discovered that would prevent them from going to heaven." I am simply agreeing with you. The Holy Spirit revealed to them, in light of the cross, during the process that leads to rebirth, every sinful habit that would prevent them from going to heaven, sinful habits that indicate their heart isn't right with God. They experienced rebirth because they confessed and crucified all of the sinful habits the Holy Spirit revealed to them. They did not refuse to confess and crucify them. They did not choose to retain them. For these reasons, therefore, they experienced the miracle of rebirth. Their hearts were right with God. It was their desire to die to self and awake to newness of life. The reason the Holy Spirit was able to reveal all of their sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of converting from sinfulness to holiness, is because they were truly desirous of being like Jesus. They were sick and tired of being unholy. They craved to be loving and kind and patient like Jesus. They were rewarded with the desires of their heart the moment they experienced the miracle of rebirth, the instant Jesus implanted within them all of the righteous fruits and attributes of God's character. Not one fruit or attribute was missing. They were filled with all the fullness of God's righteous traits of character. They were born again complete. No, they weren't born again perfect beyond room to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. But neither was Jesus born beyond room to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of Spirit. They were born again with all of the righteous traits of God's character, but now begins the lifelong process of nurturing and developing those righteous traits of character. Jesus did the same thing while He was here in th flesh. MM: The path to heaven includes confessing and crucifying sinful behaviors that will prevent people from entering the gates of heaven.
TE: The path to heaven includes being right with God. If there are things in our lives which are a stumbling block to us, preventing us from being right with Him, He will make us aware of these things. Amen! MM: Indeed, no one experiences genuine rebirth until these types of sins are confessed and crucified. Paul names some of them in the following passage:
Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
John has this to say about sin:
1 John
5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
There are certain sins that prevent people from entering heaven, and there are certain sins that do not lead to death. How do we determine which is which?
TE: We don't need to. This isn't the main issue. The main issue is being right with God. God knows what a person needs to know in order to be right with Him, and will bring the things to mind that a person needs to know.
The goodness of God leads to repentance. If we want to lead people to repentance, it behooves us to make known His goodness. True, the Holy Spirit will reveal the things that need to be confessed and crucified so that they can experience the miracle of rebirth. No one can die to self and awake to righteousness and true holiness until they confess and crucify all the sinful habits and practices that will keep them out of heaven. No one can begin abiding in Jesus until self is dead, until their old man habits of sin have been crucified, until they have put on the new man. This is the goodness of God that leads to repentance and rebirth. This is what people need to hear and know before they can be reborn, before they can begin the lifelong process of becoming more and more lovely like Jesus.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98075
04/10/08 07:35 PM
04/10/08 07:35 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Why would I have such a list? Spending enough time meditatin on sin to write that list cannot be healthy. I've had the same type of thought in response this request, but not so eloquent. Tom, you are the one who has been saying the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal all of "the sins that were practiced before conversion", that He waits to reveal some of them until after they have experienced the miracle of rebirth. But that isn't what I hear the Bible or the SOP teaching. Instead, Peter describes newborn babes as those who, like Jesus, do not sin. They laid aside their former sinful habits and practices. They put off the old man habits of sin and put on the new man of righteousness and true holiness. They are dead to sin. In Christ they are perfecting holiness. Of course, these truths are only true while they are abiding in Jesus. They are free to stop abiding in Jesus and revert back to their former sins. But so long as they are abiding in Jesus they do not and cannot commit a known sin. Here is how it is described: 1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious. 1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. One might ask here, whom does Peter adress? Does he write to the church? (Why would he encourage born again people to lay off hypocricy and evil speaking if born again people by definition already have done so?) Or is he adressing the general Joe on the street?
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98082
04/10/08 11:02 PM
04/10/08 11:02 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, you are the one who has been saying the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal all of "the sins that were practiced before conversion", that He waits to reveal some of them until after they have experienced the miracle of rebirth. But that isn't what I hear the Bible or the SOP teaching. You wrote this a few days ago: During the process that leads to rebirth, the Holy Spirit reveals representative sins, not every single sin they ever committed from birth. ... I am, of course, applying this to known sins. It sounds like you are disagreeing with yourself.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Tom]
#98099
04/11/08 03:21 PM
04/11/08 03:21 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: It sounds like you are disagreeing with yourself.
MM: How so?
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98100
04/11/08 03:22 PM
04/11/08 03:22 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: If a person is born again, he is ready to go to heaven, by definition. So there are no sins that need to be discovered that would prevent them from going to heaven. This isn't even looking at things the right way. We don't get to heaven by discovering sins but by faith in Christ.
MM: I agree. There are no unconfessed, uncrucified sins that will prevent born again believers from going to heaven. Why? Because they were revealed, confessed, and crucified in light of the cross during the process that led to rebirth.
TE: You're assuming that unconfessed, uncrucified sins are what prevent people from going to heaven. It's much simpler than that. What prevents people from going to heaven is not being right with God. If we're not right with God, we will have no desire to be in heaven. The exclusion from heaven of the wicked is voluntary with themselves.
Unconfessed, uncrucified sins are a symptom, not a cause. Tom, you wrote, "If a person is born again, he is ready to go to heaven, by definition. So there are no sins that need to be discovered that would prevent them from going to heaven." I am simply agreeing with you. The Holy Spirit revealed to them, in light of the cross, during the process that leads to rebirth, every sinful habit that would prevent them from going to heaven, sinful habits that indicate their heart isn't right with God. They experienced rebirth because they confessed and crucified all of the sinful habits the Holy Spirit revealed to them. They did not refuse to confess and crucify them. They did not choose to retain them. For these reasons, therefore, they experienced the miracle of rebirth. Their hearts were right with God. It was their desire to die to self and awake to newness of life. The reason the Holy Spirit was able to reveal all of their sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of converting from sinfulness to holiness, is because they were truly desirous of being like Jesus. They were sick and tired of being unholy. They craved to be loving and kind and patient like Jesus. They were rewarded with the desires of their heart the moment they experienced the miracle of rebirth, the instant Jesus implanted within them all of the righteous fruits and attributes of God's character. Not one fruit or attribute was missing. They were filled with all the fullness of God's righteous traits of character. They were born again complete. No, they weren't born again perfect beyond room to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. But neither was Jesus born beyond room to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of Spirit. They were born again with all of the righteous traits of God's character, but now begins the lifelong process of nurturing and developing those righteous traits of character. Jesus did the same thing while He was here in th flesh. MM: The path to heaven includes confessing and crucifying sinful behaviors that will prevent people from entering the gates of heaven.
TE: The path to heaven includes being right with God. If there are things in our lives which are a stumbling block to us, preventing us from being right with Him, He will make us aware of these things. Amen! MM: Indeed, no one experiences genuine rebirth until these types of sins are confessed and crucified. Paul names some of them in the following passage:
Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
John has this to say about sin:
1 John
5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
There are certain sins that prevent people from entering heaven, and there are certain sins that do not lead to death. How do we determine which is which?
TE: We don't need to. This isn't the main issue. The main issue is being right with God. God knows what a person needs to know in order to be right with Him, and will bring the things to mind that a person needs to know.
The goodness of God leads to repentance. If we want to lead people to repentance, it behooves us to make known His goodness. True, the Holy Spirit will reveal the things that need to be confessed and crucified so that they can experience the miracle of rebirth. No one can die to self and awake to righteousness and true holiness until they confess and crucify all the sinful habits and practices that will keep them out of heaven. No one can begin abiding in Jesus until self is dead, until their old man habits of sin have been crucified, until they have put on the new man. This is the goodness of God that leads to repentance and rebirth. This is what people need to hear and know before they can be reborn, before they can begin the lifelong process of becoming more and more lovely like Jesus.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: vastergotland]
#98101
04/11/08 03:30 PM
04/11/08 03:30 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Why would I have such a list? Spending enough time meditatin on sin to write that list cannot be healthy. I've had the same type of thought in response this request, but not so eloquent. Tom, you are the one who has been saying the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal all of "the sins that were practiced before conversion", that He waits to reveal some of them until after they have experienced the miracle of rebirth. But that isn't what I hear the Bible or the SOP teaching. Instead, Peter describes newborn babes as those who, like Jesus, do not sin. They laid aside their former sinful habits and practices. They put off the old man habits of sin and put on the new man of righteousness and true holiness. They are dead to sin. In Christ they are perfecting holiness. Of course, these truths are only true while they are abiding in Jesus. They are free to stop abiding in Jesus and revert back to their former sins. But so long as they are abiding in Jesus they do not and cannot commit a known sin. Here is how it is described: 1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious. 1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. One might ask here, whom does Peter adress? Does he write to the church? (Why would he encourage born again people to lay off hypocricy and evil speaking if born again people by definition already have done so?) Or is he adressing the general Joe on the street? He is addressing newborn babes in Christ who have laid aside their pre-conversion sinful habits. The same past tense wording is used in the following passage: 2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. In other words, they are able to partake of the divine nature because they have escaped their former sinful habits. The purpose of partaking of the divine nature is to empower them to grow in grace and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. It does not help them gradually overcome known sins.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98116
04/11/08 10:40 PM
04/11/08 10:40 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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TE: It sounds like you are disagreeing with yourself.
MM: How so? The two quotes I cited are contradictory. The first one say that every sin is revealed by the Holy Spirit. The second says not every one is.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Tom]
#98140
04/13/08 02:30 PM
04/13/08 02:30 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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They are not contradictory. Here's why. They confessed and crucified every sinful habit the Holy Spirit revealed to them during the process that led to rebrith. But, we both the Holy Spirit, in many cases, waits to reveal certain sins of ignorance until after they have experienced rebrith.
The question is - What qualifies as a sin of ignorance? And, what does not fall into the category of sins of ignorance?
I have suggested Sabbath-keeping as an example of a sin of ignorance the Holy Spirit waits to reveal, in many cases, until after people have experienced rebirth. I also include diet and dress reform and certain doctrines (i.e., soul sleep, prophecy, etc). I suspect you agree with these examples.
You seem to have also suggested polygamy as modern day example. But I'm not sure if that's what you meant.
We also seem to agree that certain sinful habits are not considered sins of ignorance, sins the Holy Spirit does not wait to reveal until after they are born again. For example, being impatient, short tempered, unlovely, etc.
What else do you think about it?
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98145
04/13/08 05:57 PM
04/13/08 05:57 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Of course every sinful habit revealed is repented of. But that's not the same thing as every sinful habit. You wrote: Tom, you are the one who has been saying the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal all of "the sins that were practiced before conversion", that He waits to reveal some of them until after they have experienced the miracle of rebirth. But that isn't what I hear the Bible or the SOP teaching. This contradicts your statement here: During the process that leads to rebirth, the Holy Spirit reveals representative sins, not every single sin they ever committed from birth. ... I am, of course, applying this to known sins.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Tom]
#98188
04/14/08 05:56 PM
04/14/08 05:56 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, I'm the one who wrote these two statements, and I'm telling they do not contradict one another. I explained what I was trying to communicate.
Let me explain further. By "representative sins" I mean the subcategory. By "every single sin" I am referring to the many hundreds of individual sins that fall under the same subcategory.
For example, impatience is a subcategory. There are dozens of different ways and thousands of times we are impatient, but all of them fall under the subcategory of impatience. During the process that leads people to rebirth, the Holy Spirit may have referred them to 10 or 20 specific acts of impatience in order to help them understand impatience is a sinful habit that must be confessed and crucified before they can experience the miracle of rebirth.
Do you see what I mean?
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