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Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: asygo] #98039
04/10/08 02:42 AM
04/10/08 02:42 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Is that different than what I asked?

It sounds like you are saying that when God looks at you, he sees someone who is unrighteous, but because you are in Christ, God, as judge, sees Christ, who is righteous, instead.

"hilasterion" means "mercy seat," so if you stop abiding in Christ, there is no mercy for you? In other words, Christ has mercy on you because you are in Christ. If you weren't, He wouldn't.

Do these thoughts accurately reflect your view?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: Tom] #98040
04/10/08 03:07 AM
04/10/08 03:07 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
Do these thoughts accurately reflect your view?

That sounds basically right, as long as we keep in mind the nuances in the meaning of righteousness in varying contexts.

BTW, hilasterion = mercyseat is exactly what I had in mind.

BTW2, I don't think it's precise to say that God ceases to have mercy on those who cease to abide in Christ. Rather, God's mercy is manifested by the grace that allows us to abide in Christ. Choosing to not abide in Christ is equivalent to choosing to reject God's mercy. Even if it's available, it does no good to those who are not in Christ.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: asygo] #98041
04/10/08 03:41 AM
04/10/08 03:41 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Rather, God's mercy is manifested by the grace that allows us to abide in Christ. Choosing to not abide in Christ is equivalent to choosing to reject God's mercy. Even if it's available, it does no good to those who are not in Christ.


I'm not seeing how this follows from what you said earlier. I'm not saying I disagree with it, I just don't follow your line of thought.

 Quote:
However, if it has been in my heart to obey, Jesus' righteousness makes up for unavoidable deficiencies. Therefore, as Judge, God sees Christ's character instead of mine, Christ's merits instead of mine, because I am in Christ.

Now, if I choose to stop being in Christ, to stop abiding in Him, then there is no hilasterion for me.


In the last part, you say that if you choose to stop being in Christ, to stop abiding in Him, then there is no hilasterion for you. Based on the previous sentence, that God sees Christ's character instead of yours, the implication is that the next sentence would be quantifying God's behavior, not yours.

You said:

1.God sees Christ's character instead of yours, if you meet the condition.
2.If you quit meeting the condition, then there is no hilasterion for you.

Since item 1. is dealing with God's behavior, I assumed item 2 was as well. But in your clarification, it sounds like you are saying that item 2 is dealing with your behavior, not God's. That is, you say that if you don't meet the condition, then you are rejecting God's mercy, and that's why there is not hilasterion for you.

So I'm missing the connection here. I hope my point/question is clear hear.

Btw, I hope you're not perceiving me as being argumentative here. I'm simply trying to understand what you're perspective is here, what you're trying to say.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: Tom] #98042
04/10/08 05:03 AM
04/10/08 05:03 AM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Tom,

One difficulty is that we're addressing a topic that can span volumes, by using a handful of sentences at a time. But we press on...

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
1.God sees Christ's character instead of yours, if you meet the condition.
2.If you quit meeting the condition, then there is no hilasterion for you.

Since item 1. is dealing with God's behavior, I assumed item 2 was as well. But in your clarification, it sounds like you are saying that item 2 is dealing with your behavior, not God's. That is, you say that if you don't meet the condition, then you are rejecting God's mercy, and that's why there is not hilasterion for you.

Actually, in my mind, both 1 and 2 are primarily dealing with our actions, and the inevitable consequences.

Perhaps I should clarify what I understand "the condition" to be. Essentially, I see the condition as being covered by the hilasterion. Hence, if you are covered by the hilasterion, God sees the hilasterion, not you. Furthermore, if you quit being covered by the hilasterion, the hilasterion does you no good (rather obvious). And going back to my other comment, it is by God's mercy that the hilasterion is available to us.

As I write this, I am reminded of the hymn Hiding in Thee.

I hope that clarifies things a bit. If not, ask some more.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: asygo] #98055
04/10/08 03:57 PM
04/10/08 03:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: asygo
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
True. Title and fitness are two different aspects of being blameless and upright in the sight of God. Nevertheless, it is still true that people who are abiding in Jesus are blameless and upright in the sight of God because they are blameless and upright - both forensically (imputed righteousness) and intrinsically (imparted righteousness). Do you agree?

No, I don't think I agree.

I believe our standing before God is based solely on imputed righteousness. Our imparted righteousness, though faultless to non-divine eyes, is still tainted by corruption.

God sees me as blameless and upright because Christ's character stands in place of mine.

Arnold, I am shocked you believe imparted righteousness is tainted with corruption. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean. It sounds like you are saying faith that works by love, that the fruits of the Spirit, are tainted with corruption. Did I hear you right? If so, I would appreciate it if you could provide Scripture and SOP support. Thank you.

Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: vastergotland] #98056
04/10/08 04:22 PM
04/10/08 04:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: västergötland
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
 Originally Posted By: västergötland
People who are abiding in Jesus are blameless and upright before God because He is blameless and upright.

Thomas, do you apply this to sanctification (imparted righteousness), too? Or, does it only apply to justification (imputed righteousness)? Are people who are abiding in Jesus only blameless and upright in the legally declared sense; or, are they blameless and upright in reality?
Not sure here, is there such a clear cut difference between justification and sanctification? Are either of those defined in relation to sin? Is not justification a word that describes a person who has been made right with God, through Jesus? Is not sanctification a word that describes a person who is starting to grow in the fruit of the Spirit?

The following quotes define how I'm using the words justification and sanctification. Do you agree with them?

1SM 396
The apostle says, "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness" (Rom. 10:10). No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty. {1SM 396.2}

7BC 908
Justification means the saving of a soul from perdition, that he may obtain sanctification, and through sanctification, the life of heaven. Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification. Sanctification means habitual communion with God. {7BC 908.16}

1SM 397
Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained. {1SM 397.1}

Those who are justified by faith must have a heart to keep the way of the Lord. It is an evidence that a man is not justified by faith when his works do not correspond to his profession. James says, "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was his faith made perfect?" (James 2:22). {1SM 397.2}

The faith that does not produce good works does not justify the soul. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24). "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3). {1SM 397.3}

Imputation of the righteousness of Christ comes through justifying faith, and is the justification for which Paul so earnestly contends. {1SM 397.4}

FW 100
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: Mountain Man] #98084
04/11/08 12:38 AM
04/11/08 12:38 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Arnold, I am shocked you believe imparted righteousness is tainted with corruption. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean. It sounds like you are saying faith that works by love, that the fruits of the Spirit, are tainted with corruption. Did I hear you right? If so, I would appreciate it if you could provide Scripture and SOP support. Thank you.

No time for much commentary now. But read these quotes, with my emphasis, to see if they clarify things.

 Quote:
He came to seek and to save that which was lost. He reached to the very depth of human misery and woe, to take man as He found him, a being tainted with corruption, degraded with vice, depraved by sin, and united with Satan in apostasy, and elevate him to a seat upon His throne. {FE 199.1}

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. {1SM 344.2}


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: asygo] #98085
04/11/08 03:41 AM
04/11/08 03:41 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Me:1.God sees Christ's character instead of yours, if you meet the condition.
2.If you quit meeting the condition, then there is no hilasterion for you.

Since item 1. is dealing with God's behavior, I assumed item 2 was as well. But in your clarification, it sounds like you are saying that item 2 is dealing with your behavior, not God's. That is, you say that if you don't meet the condition, then you are rejecting God's mercy, and that's why there is not hilasterion for you.

You:Actually, in my mind, both 1 and 2 are primarily dealing with our actions, and the inevitable consequences.

Perhaps I should clarify what I understand "the condition" to be. Essentially, I see the condition as being covered by the hilasterion. Hence, if you are covered by the hilasterion, God sees the hilasterion, not you. Furthermore, if you quit being covered by the hilasterion, the hilasterion does you no good (rather obvious). And going back to my other comment, it is by God's mercy that the hilasterion is available to us.


Me again:Ok, let's look at 1. "God sees Christ's character instead of yours, if you meet the condition." "The condition" is what we have to do in order to be covered, which is to accept Christ, isn't it? You can't say the condition is being covered by the hilasterion, because "the condition," as I was speaking, obviously means what we have to do in order to be covered.

So if we accept Christ, we are covered by the hilasterion.

Would you say the problem is more how God sees us, or how we see God?

I should clarify that by "how God sees us" I mean in some other way than how we actually are. That is, if God sees us as we are, and we are estranged from Him, then our problem is not that God sees us as estranged, but that we are estranged.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: Mountain Man] #98089
04/11/08 07:57 AM
04/11/08 07:57 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
 Originally Posted By: västergötland
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
 Originally Posted By: västergötland
People who are abiding in Jesus are blameless and upright before God because He is blameless and upright.

Thomas, do you apply this to sanctification (imparted righteousness), too? Or, does it only apply to justification (imputed righteousness)? Are people who are abiding in Jesus only blameless and upright in the legally declared sense; or, are they blameless and upright in reality?
Not sure here, is there such a clear cut difference between justification and sanctification? Are either of those defined in relation to sin? Is not justification a word that describes a person who has been made right with God, through Jesus? Is not sanctification a word that describes a person who is starting to grow in the fruit of the Spirit?

The following quotes define how I'm using the words justification and sanctification. Do you agree with them?

1SM 396
The apostle says, "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness" (Rom. 10:10). No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty. {1SM 396.2}

7BC 908
Justification means the saving of a soul from perdition, that he may obtain sanctification, and through sanctification, the life of heaven. Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification. Sanctification means habitual communion with God. {7BC 908.16}

1SM 397
Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained. {1SM 397.1}

Those who are justified by faith must have a heart to keep the way of the Lord. It is an evidence that a man is not justified by faith when his works do not correspond to his profession. James says, "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was his faith made perfect?" (James 2:22). {1SM 397.2}

The faith that does not produce good works does not justify the soul. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24). "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3). {1SM 397.3}

Imputation of the righteousness of Christ comes through justifying faith, and is the justification for which Paul so earnestly contends. {1SM 397.4}

FW 100
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}
Often I find that several pages in a book are too short a quote to give an authors full argument, and here you want me to consider loose sentences?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: vastergotland] #98104
04/11/08 03:53 PM
04/11/08 03:53 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thomas, you wrote - "Not sure here, is there such a clear cut difference between justification and sanctification? Are either of those defined in relation to sin? Is not justification a word that describes a person who has been made right with God, through Jesus? Is not sanctification a word that describes a person who is starting to grow in the fruit of the Spirit?"

1. "Is not justification a word that describes a person who has been made right with God, through Jesus?"

Yes. The quotes I posted agree.

2. "Is not sanctification a word that describes a person who is starting to grow in the fruit of the Spirit?"

Yes. The quotes I posted agree.

But where did you get your definitions from? What is your source? Please post the quotes which support your definitions. Thank you.

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