This wasn't me. I was quoting EGW. She wrote:



This seems clear to me. I didn't really mean anything different than this.



I think this is awfully put. When you say that God gave them specific marching orders, this makes it sound like they were carrying out God's will, which would be confusing God with Satan, as pointed out:



Note that Satan seeks to conceal "his own work" by representing it as a decree of God. Let's not help him in his deception!! Saying "marching orders" sounds like an echo of Satan's lies.



It's hard to say if I agree with this or not, as I'm not certain what your meaning is. I think how EGW put it is very clear. I agree with that. The Jews forged their own fetters. They reaped what they themselves had sown. They caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan ruled them according to his will. Satan sought to attribute to God what he himself was doing, and thus conceal his own work.



What?



What else, besides what?

Tom, it sounds like you believe all God does is withdraw His protection and Satan goes to town on sinners, no limits, no restrictions. Does this apply to both before and after the millennium? Or, are there differences?

PS - I found this quote searching for something else:

PK 297
The inhabitants of Sodom passed the limits of divine forbearance, and there was kindled against them the fire of God's vengeance. {PK 297.2}

Which led me to the following passages, which make it clear to me that there are two sources of fire involved in the punishment and destruction of the wicked at the end of time, and that both sources burn flesh and rubble alike, which makes me believe God will supernaturally keep sinners alive long enough to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness because otherwise human flesh, as we know it, cannot withstand such intense heat and flames and fire.

2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

OHC 252
God is full of love and plenteous in mercy; but He will by no means acquit those who neglect the great salvation He has provided. The long-lived antediluvians were swept from the earth because they made void the divine law. God will not again bring from the heavens above and the earth beneath waters as His weapons to use in the destruction of the world; but when next His vengeance shall be poured out against those who despise His authority, they will be destroyed by fire concealed in the bowels of the earth, awakened into intense activity by fires from heaven above. Then from the purified earth shall arise a song of praise: "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Rev. 5:13. "Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints." And every one who has made the heavenly treasure the first consideration, . . . will join in the glad triumphant strain. {OHC 252.4}

GC 672
Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

MAR 348
The justice of God is satisfied, and the saints and all the angelic host say with a loud voice, Amen. {Mar 348.3}

While the earth is wrapped in the fire of God's vengeance, the righteous abide safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. (Rev. 20:6.) While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. (Ps. 84:11.) {Mar 348.4}

The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {Mar 348.5}

PP 339
When the divine Presence was manifested upon Sinai, the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire in the sight of all Israel. But when Christ shall come in glory with His holy angels the whole earth shall be ablaze with the terrible light of His presence. "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people." Psalm 50:3, 4. A fiery stream shall issue and come forth from before Him, which shall cause the elements to melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel." 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8. {PP 339.2}

Well, I just quoted Ellen White, and said I agreed with that. So I take it you believe that she, in the part I quoted (from GC 35-37) was saying what you said? (that Satan goes to town on sinners, no limits, no restrictions.)

In the final judgment, sinners do not die the second death because Satan "goes to town" on them, to use your unpleasant expression.

In the final judgment, sinners die never to live again, after being made aware of the issues pertaining to the Great Controversy and their role in things. Neither of these characteristics hold for judgments that take place during this life (not including the time right before Christ comes).



Statements like this make me cringe. I hope some day your eyes are opened to see how bad this makes God out to be. A God who supernaturally acts so that people's flesh can be burned by fire without dying? This sounds like the Satanic tortures that the Catholics tried to inflict on people during the Middle Ages where they tried to cause as much pain as possible without their victim dying.

I don't see how a person can have any conception of God as revealed in Christ, as believe such a thing is possible.

Tom, I still don't know what you believe. The only thing I know for sure is that you do not believe God has ever used literal fire to punish and destroy sinners. Are you puposely being vague and elusive? Or, do you expect me to read the Bible and SOP and naturally know what you believe? Because when I read about the wrath and vengeance of God I see something nearly the exact opposite of what you see.

That's probably because you see God as being nearly the opposite as I see Him as being.

The following relates to your comment that you still don't know what I believe in regards to the suffering of the wicked in this life and in the life to come.

I see God acting as Jesus Christ did. I see the description of Ellen White in GC chapter 1 as being a clear description as to how God acts in regards to the destruction of those who cast off His protection during this life. I don't understand why there would be any difficulty in understanding this.

Regarding the destruction of the wicked, I don't believe that God supernaturally keeps the wicked alive so that He can burn them. I cannot conceive of how anyone could possibly think this, and have any conception as to God's true character. Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." Do you see Jesus as One who would supernaturally keep people alive so He could cause the flesh to catch on fire without their dying? Perhaps you are able to perceive Jesus in this way, but there's nothing in the Gospels which reveals Jesus to be even remotely like this.

In GC 543, EGW says that the wicked would long to flee from heaven, and that their exclusion from heaven is voluntary. This seems to indicate that the wicked choose not to be there. The alternative is death, so God, in mercy, gives them their choice.

There is no need for God to kill them in a painful way. That would result in nothing good. God does nothing to arbitrarily cause the wicked pain. Their suffering is caused by what they themselves have done to deform their own character. EGW points this out. She says that they cannot bear to be in the presence of God because of this, that He is as a consuming fire to them.

God is simply God. It is His goodness, His love, which causes them pain. When one has so deformed oneself by sin that the revelation of light, of truth, of love and goodness causes unbearable pain, there is nothing more that can be done for such a one.

TE: I see God acting as Jesus Christ did. I see the description of Ellen White in GC chapter 1 as being a clear description as to how God acts in regards to the destruction of those who cast off His protection during this life. I don't understand why there would be any difficulty in understanding this.

MM: 1) Jesus never acted here the way He did in 68 AD. 2) I see GC chapters 39-42 as a description of how Jesus will act during the finals days of earth's history.

---

TE: God is simply God. It is His goodness, His love, which causes them pain. When one has so deformed oneself by sin that the revelation of light, of truth, of love and goodness causes unbearable pain, there is nothing more that can be done for such a one.

MM: Consider the following insights:

GC 539
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

FLB 338
By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {FLB 338.5}

After God has done all that could be done to save men, if they still show by their lives that they slight offered mercy, death will be their portion; and it will be a dreadful death, for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross. They will then realize what they have lost--eternal life and the immortal inheritance. {FLB 338.6}

---

TE: Regarding the destruction of the wicked, I don't believe that God supernaturally keeps the wicked alive so that He can burn them. I cannot conceive of how anyone could possibly think this, and have any conception as to God's true character.

MM: Consider the following insights:

EW 294
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

The Bible and the SOP describe two sources of fire at the end of time - 1) Fire from heaven above, and 2) Fire from earth below. The same fires that burn up the rubbish of earth will burn up the flesh of sinners. It is literal fire. The same Lord who prevented saints from burning up can prevent sinners from burning up before they have been punished according to their words and works. There is nothing cruel or unusual about it. The wrath of God is love.

In the following passages she uses words like "pain", "agony", "anguish", "penalty", "punished", "judicial punishment", "justice demands", "suffer", "suffered", and "suffering" - these words do not describe God simply withdrawing His protection and allowing sin to run its course.

EW 178
For the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ will at last be rolled back upon the originator of sin, and he must bear their punishment, while those who do not accept salvation through Jesus will suffer the penalty of their own sins. {EW 178.1}

GC 544
But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}

GC 673
Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

PP 358
Since Satan is the originator of sin, the direct instigator of all the sins that caused the death of the Son of God, justice demands that Satan shall suffer the final punishment. Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty. So in the typical service, the yearly round of ministration closed with the purification of the sanctuary, and the confessing of the sins on the head of the scapegoat. {PP 358.2}

GC 539
Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

SR 225
As man's substitute and surety, the iniquity of men was laid upon Christ; He was counted a transgressor that He might redeem them from the curse of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam of every age was pressing upon His heart; and the wrath of God and the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. Every pang endured by the Son of God upon the cross, the blood drops that flowed from His head, His hands and feet, the convulsions of agony which racked His frame, and the unutterable anguish that filled His soul at the hiding of His Father's face from Him, speak to man, saying, It is for love of thee that the Son of God consents to have these heinous crimes laid upon Him; for thee He spoils the domain of death, and opens the gates of Paradise and immortal life. He who stilled the angry waves by His word and walked the foam-capped billows, who made devils tremble and disease flee from His touch, who raised the dead to life and opened the eyes of the blind, offers Himself upon the cross as the last sacrifice for man. He, the sin-bearer, endures judicial punishment for iniquity and becomes sin itself for man. {SR 225.1}

FLB 307
But the cloud of judicial wrath hangs over them, containing the elements that destroyed Sodom. In his visions of things to come the prophet John beheld this scene. {FLB 307.5}

TE: Statements like this make me cringe. I hope some day your eyes are opened to see how bad this makes God out to be. A God who supernaturally acts so that people's flesh can be burned by fire without dying? This sounds like the Satanic tortures that the Catholics tried to inflict on people during the Middle Ages where they tried to cause as much pain as possible without their victim dying.

MM: Have you considered the fact God supernaturally sustained Jesus so that He endure unimaginable agony and anguish? He suffered as sinners will suffer in the end. If God had to supernaturally sustain Jesus so that He could suffer in proportion to the sins He bore, it stands to reason the same will be necessary for sinners in the lake of fire. Here is how it is described:

In the Garden of Gethsemane Christ suffered in man's stead, and the human nature of the Son of God staggered under the terrible horror of the guilt of sin, until from His pale and quivering lips was forced the agonizing cry, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me." . . . Human nature would then and there have died under the horror of the sense of sin, had not an angel from heaven strengthened Him to bear the agony. . . . Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God's law. {AG 168.2}

He could suffer, because sustained by divinity. He could endure, because He was without one taint of disloyalty or sin. Christ triumphed in man's behalf in thus bearing the justice of punishment. He secured eternal life to men, while He exalted the law, and made it honorable. {1SM 302.1}

Some have limited views of the atonement. They think that Christ suffered only a small portion of the penalty of the law of God; they suppose that, while the wrath of God was felt by His dear Son, He had, through all His painful sufferings, the evidence of His Father's love and acceptance; that the portals of the tomb before Him were illuminated with bright hope, and that He had the abiding evidence of His future glory. Here is a great mistake. Christ's keenest anguish was a sense of His Father's displeasure. His mental agony because of this was of such intensity that man can have but faint conception of it. {AG 171.2}

Tom, this passage describes God commanding people to execute sinners. This isn't the God you have been portraying, is it?

PP 323-326
Of all the sins that God will punish, none are more grievous in His sight than those that encourage others to do evil...

... In the name of "the Lord God of Israel," Moses now commanded those upon his right hand, who had kept themselves clear of idolatry, to gird on their swords and slay all who persisted in rebellion. "And there fell of the people that day about three thousand men."...

Those who performed this terrible work of judgment were acting by divine authority, executing the sentence of the King of heaven. Men are to beware how they, in their human blindness, judge and condemn their fellow men; but when God commands them to execute His sentence upon iniquity, He is to be obeyed.

...

It was necessary that this sin should be punished, as a testimony to surrounding nations of God's displeasure against idolatry. By executing justice upon the guilty, Moses, as God's instrument, must leave on record a solemn and public protest against their crime...

Love no less than justice demanded that for this sin judgment should be inflicted. God is the guardian as well as the sovereign of His people. He cuts off those who are determined upon rebellion, that they may not lead others to ruin...

So with the apostasy at Sinai. Unless punishment had been speedily visited upon transgression, the same results would again have been seen... It was the mercy of God that thousands should suffer, to prevent the necessity of visiting judgments upon millions. In order to save the many, He must punish the few... And it was no less a mercy to the sinners themselves that they should be cut short in their evil course... It was in love to the world, in love to Israel, and even to the transgressors, that crime was punished with swift and terrible severity.