Tom, what do you know about it? What is your experience with it? Have you ever watched God punish sinners with literal fire? The Bible and the SOP describe God punishing sinners with literal fire in the lake of fire. Each sinner suffers in duration according to their sinfulness. That's what it says. Who are you to insist it doesn't mean what it says? All you ever do is quote unrelated passages and conclude God is too kind and loving to punish sinners with literal fire. Have you forgotten Sodom? Have you forgotten Nadab and Abihu? Have you forgotten all the other times God killed sinners? Have you forgotten all the times God commanded people to kill sinners? You seem to think God will simply withdraw His protection and sin will kill sinners. That's not how God has killed sinners in the past.

I've seen pictures of people being burned by fire. I know it's very painful, and they only have a few seconds for the fire to be put out, or they die. One doesn't need to know more than this, given that we know that the wicked will have the same bodies we have now.

The idea that God tortures people with literal fire for hours or days to make them pay for their sins is wrong. Neither the Bible nor the Spirit of Prophecy teach this. God simply isn't like this. God is not capable of such barbarous behavior.

God, in Scripture, is presented as fire. God is constrained to represent Himself to us in ways that we can understand. Evidently the closest representation God could think of was fire.

Ellen White writes:



Just think a moment about how such a scene would be presented in vision. It would make sense that God would communicate the scene by using fire.

Both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy communicate that God is a consuming fire. But this does not mean that God, or His glory, is literal fire!

These are symbols to communicate spiritual truth to us. Spiritual truths are spiritually discerned; you cannot understand them simply by taking spiritual symbols literally. One needs to take all the data, consider all the relevant facts, and put things together to come up with a picture that makes sense.

I wish to make clear that I do not, by any means, consider myself to have all the answers. I've thought about it, and have tried to come up with a model which makes sense, which matches *all* that I know in regards to what inspiration says on the subject, not just a description here or there. In particular, a model should take into account that God is love, and that He acts in accordance with the principles demonstrated in Christ's life, such as mercy, compassion, and kindness.

Tom, I agree it sounds strange. But I have read many things about God in the Bible that sounds strange to me. Burning all those people alive in Sodom sounds strange. Burning Nadab and Abihu alive sounds strange. But there it is in black and white in the Bible. The biblical and SOP descriptions of the wicked suffering and dying in the lake of fire also sound strange, but there it is in black and white. God has done strange things in the past.

There is no reason for me to think He won't do strange things in the future. During the 7 last plagues holy angels will plead with God to repay the wicked with double trouble. That sounds strange to me, too. But there it is in black and white in the Bible. The wrath and vengeance of God is love. The punishment and destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire will cause angels and saints to praise His holy name, not only because sin and death have been eliminated, but also because the wicked suffered in proportion to their sinfulness. Just and true are thy judgments, Lord God Almighty. For they were worthy.

I wasn't arguing that it sounds strange. I said your interpretation is impossible, because God simply is not that way. That is, God is not capable of acting in the way you are suggesting.

I'm sorry your view of God is such that it is. I hope some day you will perceive God in a more positive way, not as One who burns people for whatever motive you ascribe to Him, but as One who would sacrifice Himself, and even His only Son, to save His loved one in need.

God, in scripture is presented in more different ways than a well cut diamond have reflections of light. Fire is one of those reflections but it is by no means the only one nor the main one. The sparkle of Gods self revelation is of course Jesus and not any of the God as fire passages.

Agreed, Thomas. I was addressing specific instances. But, certainly, one needs to look to Christ as *the* revelation of God. It is in Christ that we see God clearly and fully revealed.

Tom, you seem to think I believe God is looking for excuses to kill people with fire. What I have said that gives you this impression? I agree with Thomas that there are many facets to God, one of them being that He uses literal fire to punish and kill impenitent sinners. Your theory ignores or downplays or reinterprets the biblical facts. Here are the facts:

1. God used literal fire to punish and destroy the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.

2. God used literal fire to punish and destroy Nadab and Abihu.

3. God has commanded holy angels to kill sinners.

4. God has commanded humans to kill sinners.

5. God gives evil angels permission to kill sinners.

I was commenting on your view that God will supernaturally keep people alive so that He can cause them excruciating pain by burning them alive in order to make them pay for their sins. I can see how someone could quickly or carelessly mistakenly read Ellen White or Revelation and come to this conclusion, but I don't see how anyone could really think this out carefully and conclude this. All one needs to do is to consider what God is really like.

My whole reason for becoming an Adventist is because I was convinced that the SDA view of God's character was more in harmony with what I believed to be true than what I had been thinking before.

Tom, here is what I posted about it:


It is mere speculation. I have no way of knowing how God will punish sinners in duration proportionate to their sinfulness. All I know is that's what the Bible and SOP teach about it. You can say that's not what God is like, how He does things, but the word of God is too clear to misunderstand. The following examples plainly teach God has killed sinners in the past and that He will do it one last time in the lake of fire:

1. God used literal fire to punish and destroy the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.

2. God used literal fire to punish and destroy Nadab and Abihu.

3. God has commanded holy angels to kill sinners.

4. God has commanded humans to kill sinners.

5. God gives evil angels permission to kill sinners.

I read this. Again, I was commenting on your idea that God makes people pay for their sin by supernaturally keeping them alive so He can burn them. You spoke of their flesh having flames. Your statement that it is speculation that God supernaturally keeps them alive is false. Given your idea that God burns them alive, and given that they do not die within 5 or 10 seconds, the only possibility is that God supernaturally keeps them alive. Otherwise they would burn up. The wicked have bodies like ours. Our bodies cannot handle being on fire for more than a few seconds. That's not speculation.