I think this is where your theory is off. There are different forms of impatience, some more subtle than others. When you come to Christ, the Holy Spirit reveals the more gross examples, but there can be subtle examples that there would be no point in Him revealing because you wouldn't understand it to be sin. You might mistake what is really impatience to be something else. So time is needed for you to recognize the truth about yourself.

The main difference is whether or not they are revealed. God reveals to us that which we know to begin the process of healing. We don't need to know everything, and, indeed, we can't. There's just too much.



Because He wants to heal us, not overwhelm us. Would you show a child Calculus? Or do you start with the basics, and work your way up?



Again, God wants to heal us. Not overwhelm us. If God revealed all our sin to us at once, it would blow us away. So He reveals what is necessary for us to start the process of healing.



I know nothing in Scripture which talks about God's revealing certain categories or subcategories of sins when one is born again. I think your over-complicating things.

God wants us to be right with Him, so He reveals to us what is necessary for this to happen.



Before being translated, I think all sin is revealed, which I think is communicated by the fact that the 144,000 stand before God without a mediator.

This is where I get confused. You say there are all sorts of subtle forms of impatience the Holy Spirit waits to reveal until after a person experiences rebirth, but you never cite examples. When I beg for examples, you tell me it isn't important, that my focus is all wrong.

I can tell you it matters very much to those of us who have to be around someone who is impatient. Being around someone who is impatient, who doesn't know they are being impatient, can be less than lovely, especially if they claim to be a Christain. Few things are more offensive than being around a clueless, impatient, "Christian".

It is easier to conclude, based on their fruits, that they are a Christian in name only. The rest of us are convinced they are not a Christian in reality. We're not being hypersensitive or judgmental. It's just that they are the furthest thing from being like Jesus when they are being impatient, especially if they happen to be your boss or spouse or parent.

It is very difficult, well nigh impossible, to blame it on the Holy Spirit, to conclude He simply hasn't revealed what is obvious to the rest of us to the person who claims to be a Christian. To what advantage is it to the Holy Spirit to sit back and wait for a better day to reveal to him how unChristlike his impatience is? It cetainly doesn't speak well of God if this is indeed what the Holy Spirit is doing. Why would He wait?

Do you see what I mean?

You ask why He would wait. As I said, it's because He doesn't want to overwhelm us. God shows us representative sins, what's needed in order to heal our relationship.

It's very easy for us to misdiagnose a behavior we have as something other than it is. It's not that the Holy Spirit necessarily decides not to reveal something to us, but that we are not able to understand the truth at a given point. The Holy Spirit could reveal whatever He wanted, and we still wouldn't get it.

It seems to me that you are vastly underestimating how deeply we need healing, or, rather, how deep the healing that we need is.

If the impatient man in your example Mike would be in a situation like this: having an infected wound on his leg which would cause terminal illness within days if untreated (here: impatience) but also hanging by one branch above the Grand Canyon, which would mean death within minutes if the branch breaks or his fingers run out of strenght to hold on (here: lacking knowledge of Jesus unto salvation, ie not being born again), would you blame the Spirit for not treating the legg wound first? Or would you say that it matters less if he falls to his death if only the legg wound is healed first as he would die without any active sin in his life although he would also die without having accepted Jesus and a rebirth experience?

Thomas, thanx for the colorful, creative parable. But does it have to be either or? Seems to me rebirth cures both problems - the nasty leg and the brittle branch. Jesus would not leave the guy hanging and only cure the leg, nor would He only place him on solid ground and leave the leg untreated. In the past, Jesus healed people and then told them to go and sin no more.

Tom, what about the impatient Christian whose impatience leads people around him to conclude his profession is nothing more than hot air. Is this the type of sinful beavhiors the Holy Spirit waits to reveal until after they are born again? What is it about such habits that makes the Holy Spirit wait?

God has to start the healing process somewhere. So He reveals to us what is needed in order to heal our relationship to Him. Perfection of character is not instantaneous.

Consider the publican in Jesus' story as an example. He smote his breast, not so much as looking to heaven, and prayed, "God, be merciful to me a sinner" and was justified.

Tom, Sister White wrote that many, so many who claim to be a Christian were buried alive, self did not die, they did not rise to newness of life. She says they have the same untamed tempers and ungodly dispositions they possessed before they were baptized. She gos on to say they are not truly born again. People who experience genuine rebirth manifest the fruits of the Spirit. There is a decided difference before and after they complete the process of converting from being unlike Jesus to being like Him. People around them marvel at the transformation and give glory to God. This is what it means to be born again. The impatient guy you are defending is not born again.

The poor publican you referred to is not the kind of guy who has impatient means and manners that offfend people around him or cause them to conclude his profession is hypocritical. He is too mindful of his need of grace to be grumpy or short tempered. This kind of healing happens during the process that leads to rebirth. The Holy Spirit does not wait until after they are born again to heal them of sinful behaviors that make people around them think theie rebirth is incomplete or faulty. I don't see how you can say otherwise.

I believe everything you wrote here is true, except the last sentence. The impatient guy I'm speaking of is unaware of some impatient behavior he has. Born again does not mean infallible or perfect. One still has things to learn.



This is a straw man argument, MM. Nobody claimed this to be the case, and you know this.



All I can think of to say is to repeat that it appears to me that you are vastly underestimating how deep the healing we need is. It simply isn't something that can be done in a moment or an hour. The process begins when we are born again. It doesn't end there.