MM: You have yet to prove she said God was willing to pardon and reinstate him after he was guilty of sinning without making it conditional upon him accepting the atoning, substitutionary death of Jesus, without making it dependent upon Jesus paying his sin debt of death.

TE: 1.That Lucifer was guilty of sinning is clear because:
a)He was given the opportunity to confess his sin.
b)God offered to pardon Him.

2.That EGW said that Christ did not have to die is evident by the fact that she did not say that Christ had to die.

MM: Based on this unbiblical theory (which you freely admit cannot be proven from the Bible), you go on to surmise, Jesus did not have to die for us to satisfy the legal demands of law and justice, that is, to give God the legal right to pardon and save penitent sinners.

TE: Whoa! The Bible doesn't discuss this. The Spirit of Prophecy does. I could just as well ask you to prove from Scripture that your ideas regarding God's treatment of Lucifer are Scriptural, and you could prove nothing about because it is not discussed. So this is a pointless request.

MM: But all the quotes I have shared in my last few posts teach the exact opposite of your theory.

TE: Regarding unbiblical theories, I've been requesting for some time now that you produce something from Scripture which teaches that God cannot legally pardon without Christ's death, but you haven't produced any Scripture from statement which says this. In particular, if your theory were true, one would expect that Christ would have explained this meaning of His death. But where is such an idea to be found from Christ's teachings?

I've also brought to your attention that your theory is not historically viable. That is, the idea you are suggesting, that God could not legally pardon without Christ's death was not articulated before a certain time, probably the 16th century. So if this idea were true, why wouldn't someone have articulated it?

Tom, it was you who wrote - "We required the sacrifice of Jesus' life in order to be saved." The way you state it makes me think you believe God would have been willing to save us in some other way except for the fact we required Him to die. What do you mean?


Are you saying we required Jesus to suffer and die in proportion to the sins of the world? When did we do this, when did we say this to God?

If this is truly what we demanded, rather than law and justice demanding it, rather than God demanding it of Himself, why didn't Jesus fulfill the requirements? Jesus did not actually die the second death. Satan will die with our sins and second death in the lake of fire at the end of time.


There was no fire or flames when Jesus tasted and conquered our second death on the cross. Again, Satan, not Jesus, is the one who will suffer and die with our sins and second death in the lake of fire. That's why there were fames when Jesus died on the cross. That's why Jesus didn't remain in the grave. On the cross, Jesus earned the legal right to own our sin and second death. As the legal, rightful owner He will eliminate them in the lake of fire with Satan.


Do you agree Sister White's points? Each one of the following statements are taken from what she wrote in the quotes I posted above. Which one of these insights do you disagree with?

1. He was engaged in paying the vast debt which man owed to God.

2. The penalty must be exacted.

3. The punishment has been endured by the sinner's substitute.

4. He took the place of the transgressor, and suffered the penalty of justice that must fall upon him.

5 Jesus suffered the extreme penalty of the law for our transgression, and justice was fully satisfied.

6. Its demands have been met, its authority maintained.

7. By paying our sin debt of death, Jesus removed a restraint from God’s love.

8. His suffering and death allows the grace of God to act with unbounded efficiency.


No, our "whole problem" is not that we need to be "brought to God". Being brought to God solves part of our problem, but it doesn't solve all of our problems, nor does it solve all of His problems. There is the matter of law and justice requiring punishment and death proportionate to the sinfulness of sinners. To pardon and save sinners, a divine substitute is required to suffer and conquer the death sinners owe to law and justice. By tasting and conquering death, Jesus paid the vast debt sinners owe to God for breaking the law.

Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon.

A plan was devised that the sentence of death should rest upon a Substitute. In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. In the slain victim, man sees the fulfillment of God's word, "Thou shalt surely die."


Neither have you shown from the NT that Jesus said He was willing to pardon Lucifer's sins without paying his sin debt of death. Besides, you do not accept what Jesus says through His prophets as coming from His own mouth. Also, the fact Jesus paid our sin debt of death on the cross speaks louder than words.


If God could have pardoned sinners without Jesus having to pay their sin debt of death on the cross, He certainly would have done it. History clearly speaks to the fact Jesus had to die to pay the price to redeem sinners. No death, no redemption.

Pre-historically, Jesus and the Father agreed, before creating FMAs, that Jesus would shed His blood to ransom them should they sin. They made it plain to A&E - you sin, you die. It is the law, a law not even God can rescind or disregard.

The reason A&E did not die the instant they sinned is because Jesus paid their sin debt of death, thus releasing them from having to immediately pay it themselves. It provided the human race probationary time. It also gave God the legal right to pardon and save penitent sinners.

Law and justice would not have given God permission to pardon and save penitent sinners if Jesus had not paid the sinners sin debt of death. This is evident from the fact Jesus had to suffer and conquer death on the cross. Otherwise, it would not have been required.

God won back the allegiance and obedience of angels and mankind before Jesus suffered and died on the cross. Therefore, the primary reason Jesus had to suffer and die on the cross was not to prove God is loving and worthy of worship. He had already demonstrated these things before Jesus died on the cross. The main reason Jesus had to suffer and die on the cross was to pay our sin debt of death, to satisfy the just and loving demands of law and justice.

He was shown that if he continued to pursue his course it would be a sin.

Satan had excited sympathy in his favor by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ. Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God's authority as just and righteous. (4SP 319)

Up to that point he was not guilty of sinning.

He was convinced it would be a sin to continue his course, but pride forbade him to give it up. He sinned the instant he chose not to abandon his course. He was guilty of committing the unpardonable sin the moment he sinned. His first sin was the unpardonable sin. Given his background, knowledge, and relationship to God it could be no other way. That's why Sister White wrote there was no pardon or salvation for angels the instant they ventured to sin.

Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon, on condition of repentance and submission. (GC 496)

The evidence we do have in the Bible makes it clear law and justice require death for sin. Nowhere in the Bible is your theory taught. The fact the biblical evidence supports the truth is evidence against your theory.

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90)

I provided historical evidence to support the truth.

It's just that you haven't acknowledged it as proof. I have also provided Biblical evidence to support the truth, but you haven't acknowledged it as proof.

And yet you keep asking me to prove it from Jesus' words and the words of historians.

Tom, it was you who wrote - "We required the sacrifice of Jesus' life in order to be saved." The way you state it makes me think you believe God would have been willing to save us in some other way except for the fact we required Him to die. What do you mean?

Instead, these insights teach me law and justice required Jesus to pay the debt we owe, and the debt we owe is suffering and death proportionate to our sinfulness.

TE: I wouldn't say instead, but that this is simply expressing the same thought in different words.

Are you saying we required Jesus to suffer and die in proportion to the sins of the world? When did we do this, when did we say this to God?

If this is truly what we demanded, rather than law and justice demanding it, rather than God demanding it of Himself, why didn't Jesus fulfill the requirements? Jesus did not actually die the second death. Satan will die with our sins and second death in the lake of fire at the end of time.

Jesus didn’t pay some other debt. He paid our debt in particular, as if He were a sinner paying the sinner’s debt in the lake of fire.

TE: I thought your idea was that these deaths were different. Now you're equating them? I actually agree with what your saying this time.

There was no fire or flames when Jesus tasted and conquered our second death on the cross. Again, Satan, not Jesus, is the one who will suffer and die with our sins and second death in the lake of fire. That's why there were fames when Jesus died on the cross. That's why Jesus didn't remain in the grave. On the cross, Jesus earned the legal right to own our sin and second death. As the legal, rightful owner He will eliminate them in the lake of fire with Satan.

No, our "whole problem" is not that we need to be "brought to God". Being brought to God solves part of our problem, but it doesn't solve all of our problems, nor does it solve all of His problems.

There is the matter of law and justice requiring punishment and death proportionate to the sinfulness of sinners. To pardon and save sinners, a divine substitute is required to suffer and conquer the death sinners owe to law and justice. By tasting and conquering death, Jesus paid the vast debt sinners owe to God for breaking the law.

Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon.

The life of Christ was not the price paid to the Father for our pardon; but that life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely. (God is Love)

A plan was devised that the sentence of death should rest upon a Substitute. In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. In the slain victim, man sees the fulfillment of God's word, "Thou shalt surely die."

Tom, what do the following quotes mean to you? Please address the points she spells out. Thank you.

AG 139
Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

Paul says, “Do we then make void the law through faith?” This is precisely what many modern theologians affirm. Such should hear Paul’s answer: “God forbid; yea, we establish the law” (through faith, understood).1 How is it we establish God’s law when we have faith in Christ? Let us ask another question, Why did God not pardon the sinner without the sacrifice of Christ? Was it because he did not love man sufficiently?---Ah, no! God is revealed through Jesus Christ. Christ says, “I and my Father are one.” At the crucifixion, both the expression of the divine love and the revelation of the world’s depths of defiant sin came to the climax. But even there Jesus, dying on the cross while the unrepentant world scoffed at its feet, poured forth his soul’s longings for man in these words, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”

Thus is revealed how God feels even toward an unrepentant world. He longs to forgive them. Why does he not do it?---Such an act would ignore his law and set it at naught, thus leading others to thoughtlessly violate it. But the violation of that law brings as an unavoidable result misery and death. No forgiveness that could not remove these would be worth having. A forgiveness that led more men into them would be a curse rather than a blessing. (God is Love)

1BC 1086
In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. The beasts for sacrificial offerings were to prefigure Christ. In the slain victim, man was to see the fulfillment for the time being of God's word, "Ye shall surely die" {1BC 1086.7}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.(DA 764)

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (Romans 12:1)

6For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. (Ps. 51)

Nowhere is it taught that God gave in to our demands to die on the cross.

Man learned to love and trust God thousands of years before the cross. Jesus demonstrated the love and trustworthiness of God before He died on the cross.

Therefore, the primary reason why Jesus had to die on the cross was not to demonstrate that God is worthy of worship.

The main reason He had to die was to satisfy the just and loving demands of law and justice.

Fire and flames were not part of His experience on the cross because Satan is the one who must suffer with our sins and die our second death in the lake of fire.

History reflects these truths beginning with the Godhead consenting to the plan of salvation. Throughout the Bible history repeats it over and over again.

He also spoke through Paul to clear up the confusion.

But the RCC went on to pervert the truth again. The Dark Ages ensued.

Then, after the Great Disappointment in 1844, God raised up Sister White to restore the truth.