TE: Your idea is similar in principle to that of an eternal hell, in terms of God's acting to torture His victims. The only difference between your view and the one she is arguing against is one of duration.

MM: Tom, I quoted what she wrote about it. She quoted what the Bible says about it. Both teach God will resurrect sinners at the end of time. He will judge them. They will confess they are worthy of death. They will attempt to overthrow New Jerusalem. He will engulf them with literal fire from above and from below. They will suffer in duration in proportion to their sinfulness. They will eventually die. Satan suffers the longest and is last to die. These are the facts.

The thought that God could supernaturally keep people alive for no other purpose than to suffer pain caused by literally fire burning their flesh is barbarous. She wrote:



It should be pretty clear from this that she could not have held to the view you are discussing.

Actually, simply having some basic idea as to God's character should make it clear on the face of it that God could not take the action you are suggesting.

Both John the Revelator and Ellen White were relating visions. We need to exercise thought to understand the visions. As she suggested, we should compare her writings with each other, just as we would with Scripture, to get a full and complete understanding of her view of an issue. Over and over she speaks of God as being kind and merciful, even in judgment. She writes:



Your ideas are confusing God with Satan. As she points out, "cruelty is satanic," and it's difficult to conceive of ideas more cruel than what you have suggested, that God supernaturally keeps people alive so that they can be burned alive to pay for their misdeeds.

How can you look at Scripture, in particular at Jesus Christ, the clearest revelation of God, and not perceive His true character?

Since it has been proposed that it is the goodness of the Lord which will destroy the sinner, could it be thus that those who have been finetuning their skills of ignoring or rejecting God the most take the longest time to finally realise the depth of their mistake and therefore survive the longest? That could explain why satan would be the last evil one standing since he has lived in denial the longest. What do you think? As of biblical support, I have none.

I think what you're suggesting is possible, Thomas.

The way that I've thought of it is to ask the question as to what causes the pain. It seems to me there are two things. One is a recognition of the sin that one has committed, and the ramifications of that (the latter part being the real key). The second thing is the realization that one could have had heaven. I think when Jesus speaks of weeping and gnashing of teeth, he has this in mind (the gnashing of teeth denoting remorse).

The more sin one has, and the more light one has had, the more suffering. Not because of divine fiat, but because that's reality.

Also, to clarify the statement that the goodness of God destroys the sinner, I think that this is true, properly understood. First of all, that God's glory is His goodness is clear in Exodus where Moses asked the Lord to reveal His glory to him, and God responded, "I will cause by goodness to pass before you."

EGW remarks that "the glory of Him who is love will destroy them" which gives an interpretation as to the meaning of the fire that will destroy the wicked. That God's glory is represented in Scripture as fire I don't think is hard to see.

Ok, now as to the meaning. Imagine you are in a room which is filled with poisonous gas. When you breathe, you die. If you held your breath, you wouldn't die (for awhile). Now what caused your death? Was it breathing? One could say yes, because as long as you didn't breath, you lived. But really, it makes more sense to say that the poisonous gas caused death.

Now we can say that God's glory, or God's goodness, causes the death of the wicked, but it makes more sense to say that sin caused their death, because just as there is nothing intrinsically lethal about breathing, so there is nothing intrinsically lethal about God's goodness. We were created for His good pleasure; we were equipped to respond to His goodness in a positive way, not by dying. It is sin which so deforms us that a process which should be good for us, like breathing, results in our death.

TE: How can you look at Scripture, in particular at Jesus Christ, the clearest revelation of God, and not perceive His true character?

MM: Tom, please watch yourself. Saying things like this is rude and counterproductive. Again, the quotes I posted clearly teach God will use literal fire to punish sinners in proportion to their sinfulness. Whether or not He will keep them alive supernaturally is mere speculation. The facts are - each sinner will suffer in duration to their sinfulness and then die.

I don't understand how you can look at the life of Christ and see a God who would inflict pain and suffering upon people by supernaturally keeping them alive so that they can bear more pain. Again, I cite Ellen White:



I hear you describing what she describes here, with the only difference being that you see these tortures being of finite duration. I ask you the same question she asks: What would be gained to God should we admit that He delights in witnessing tortures; that He is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom He holds in the flames of hell? Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love?

How can you look at the life of Jesus Christ and see One who would do this?

TE: I don't understand how you can look at the life of Christ and see a God who would inflict pain and suffering upon people by supernaturally keeping them alive so that they can bear more pain.

MM: Again, the quotes I have been posting clearly teach God will use literal fire to punish sinners in proportion to their sinfulness. Whether or not He will keep them alive supernaturally is mere speculation. The facts are - each sinner will suffer in duration to their sinfulness and then die. No one can deny these facts. No one can deny the facts that portray God using literal fire to judge the wicked.

That a person will suffering according to their sinfulness and then die is correct. This is because sin results in suffering and death. God does nothing to arbitrarily cause this to happen, like burning people with fire.

That God supernaturally keeps them alive is not speculation. The unrighteous dead have the same bodies we have. You can't have an MM burning, engulfed by flames, without his dying in a few seconds without supernatural intervention. MM's weren't made that way. They die quickly under such treatement.

Almost like M&M's when eaten.