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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #98443
04/20/08 02:39 PM
04/20/08 02:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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While you're looking for quotes it would be nice if you could find one that verifies people who have never heard of the Bible or Jesus learned to keep the Sabbath by observing nature.

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #98446
04/20/08 04:26 PM
04/20/08 04:26 PM
Tom  Offline OP
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Lawrence, Kansas
There's no reason to, is there?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #98472
04/21/08 02:38 PM
04/21/08 02:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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There is if you hope to substantiate the assertion people who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible can learn "everything" there is to know about God by observing the things of nature. The question is - Does "everything" include the first four commandments? If not, why not? What evidence do you have that "everything" excludes the fourth commandment?

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #98482
04/21/08 08:26 PM
04/21/08 08:26 PM
Tom  Offline OP
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
What evidence do you have that "everything" excludes the fourth commandment?


There's no evidence in favor of this assertion, is there? Why would anyone think that one would know about the Sabbath without special revelation from God?

From the context of the text, "everything" pertains to those things which can be known about God from nature. This includes the fact that God exists, and that one should be thankful to God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #98500
04/22/08 03:25 PM
04/22/08 03:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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"Everything" cannot include understanding the truth about God as defined in the first three commandments. There is nothing in nature that identifies the God of the Bible as the only one worthy of worship. One might suspect there is a god, but it would not occur to him that that God is Jesus or the Father. They must be told the truth. It is not known instinctively.

Latent within every sinner is a craving for God's companionship, but they cannot articulate who God is until they learn about Him in the Bible. Unless otherwise instructed, indigenous tribes, observing nature, naturally end up worshiping false gods and making idols to represent their false gods. Nevertheless, even among the most remote tribes a knowledge of certain biblical things exists. There are vestiges of the creation story, the fall of man, the universal flood, etc. But these truths are so distorted that they do not, unaided, lead to the one true God.

SC 10
God has bound our hearts to Him by unnumbered tokens in heaven and in earth. Through the things of nature, and the deepest and tenderest earthly ties that human hearts can know, He has sought to reveal Himself to us. Yet these but imperfectly represent His love. Though all these evidences have been given, the enemy of good blinded the minds of men, so that they looked upon God with fear; they thought of Him as severe and unforgiving. Satan led men to conceive of God as a being whose chief attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. He pictured the Creator as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgments upon them. It was to remove this dark shadow, by revealing to the world the infinite love of God, that Jesus came to live among men. {SC 10.3}

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #98501
04/22/08 03:45 PM
04/22/08 03:45 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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 Quote:
Romans
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed [it] unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

This passage is talking people who know the truth about God but who have turned their backs on Him to serve sin and unrighteousness. It is not talking about people who have never learned Bible truths. The following list proves the point. No one can learn all the truths Paul listed by simply observing nature. Yes, most of them are known instinctively, but not all of them.

1. They hold the truth unrighteousness. Verse 18.

2. God hath showed it unto them. Verse 19.

3. They are without excuse. Verse 20.

4. They knew God. Verse 21.

5. They changed the truth of God into a lie. Verse 25.

6. They did not like to retain God in their knowledge. Verse 28.

7. They know the judgments of God. Verse 32.

8. They know that committing such sins will result in punishment and death. Verse 32.

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #98513
04/22/08 07:01 PM
04/22/08 07:01 PM
Tom  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
"Everything" cannot include understanding the truth about God as defined in the first three commandments.


Sure it can. From nature one can learn that there is a Creator who should be worshiped, and thanked.

 Quote:
There is nothing in nature that identifies the God of the Bible as the only one worthy of worship. One might suspect there is a god, but it would not occur to him that that God is Jesus or the Father. They must be told the truth. It is not known instinctively.


Enough is known about God to be saved.

 Quote:
Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. (DA 638)


They do what the law requires, even not having a knowledge beyond that which comes by nature and the Holy Spirit. The law encompasses both tables of the law.


 Quote:
Latent within every sinner is a craving for God's companionship, but they cannot articulate who God is until they learn about Him in the Bible. Unless otherwise instructed, indigenous tribes, observing nature, naturally end up worshiping false gods and making idols to represent their false gods. Nevertheless, even among the most remote tribes a knowledge of certain biblical things exists. There are vestiges of the creation story, the fall of man, the universal flood, etc. But these truths are so distorted that they do not, unaided, lead to the one true God.


They are not unaided. They have the Holy Spirit. Nature + Holy Spirit = enough to be saved (see DA quote)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #98514
04/22/08 07:06 PM
04/22/08 07:06 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding Romans 1, Paul is making the point, in the first few chapters of Romans, that all are without excuse. This includes those who do not have access to Scripture. They are without excuse as well.

 Quote:
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


This says the truth which can be known of God is known because God has manifested it from the things He made. This is from nature. Not Scripture. Nothing in the passage says, or implies, these people know Scripture.

If what you were suggesting were true, then all those ignorant of Scripture would have an excuse for not obeying God, the exact opposite of what Paul is arguing. In this case, we shouldn't send missionaries to them, since they would be saved (not being without excuse, how could God condemn them?)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #98517
04/22/08 07:37 PM
04/22/08 07:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I haven't been arguing against being saved. I am saying that not everything about God's law can be learned by simply observing nature. You agree with me that Sabbath-keeping cannot be learned from nature. Do you also agree with me that the truth about the triune, Godhead cannot be learned from nature? What in nature forbids making idols to represent God? What in nature forbids worshiping the idols we are inspired to make?

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Again, what in nature teaches us that God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Where in nature is the truth about the Godhead taught?

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #98518
04/22/08 07:42 PM
04/22/08 07:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I agree there will be people in heaven who never learned about Jesus through Bible study and prayer. They will be lost or saved based on whether or not they lived in harmony with their convictions and conscience, with what they believed to be morally right and wrong. You cited Romans 1 to prove your point. However, that is not the type of people Paul was talking about. The following list is proof:

1. They hold the truth unrighteousness. Verse 18.

2. God hath showed it unto them. Verse 19.

3. They are without excuse. Verse 20.

4. They knew God. Verse 21.

5. They changed the truth of God into a lie. Verse 25.

6. They did not like to retain God in their knowledge. Verse 28.

7. They know the judgments of God. Verse 32.

8. They know that committing such sins will result in punishment and death. Verse 32.

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