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Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Mountain Man] #98240
04/15/08 06:39 PM
04/15/08 06:39 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The basic problem that man has is that he is estranged from God. He needs to be set right with God. The way to accomplish this (ST 1/20/90) is by a revelation of God.

Satan chose to make himself king, as it were, wishing to be in the place of God. In so doing, he set in motion the principle of selfishness, which is the law of sin and death. The law of life of the universe is to receive from the hand of God, and give back, to God Himself (first table of 10 commandments) or one's neighbor (second table of 10 commandments).

In order to win homage to himself, Satan resorted to deception. He represented God as having his own attributes (stern, harsh, sever, getting his way by force, etc.). Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men.

In order to redeem man, it was necessary that the truth be made known. This truth involves the truth about:

1.God
2.Satan
3.Sin
4.Death
5.Ourselves

Christ's mission was to reveal the truth.

It's a mistake to separate Christ's death from His life, as if it could be considered as a separate element unrelated from His life. His life gives meaning to His death, and His death cannot be understood apart from His life. So in asking why Christ had to suffer and die on the cross, we are implicitly asking, what was Christ's mission.

Christ's death on the cross was not an arbitrarily set demand on the part of God. Christ's death was the inevitable consequence of being delivered to evil men and evil angels. You will recall that attempts were made on Jesus' life many times, but His time had not yet come, so God did not permit His death prematurely.

To summarize, Christ's life, and death, were necessary that the truth might be revealed, regarding the items I mentioned.

Regarding justice being satisfied, I think Fifield described the idea eloquently. Any pardon which would not result in obedience to the law of God would be worthless. Here's an EGW explanation:

 Quote:
The grace of Christ and the law of God are inseparable. In Jesus mercy and truth are met together.... He was the representative of God and the exemplar of humanity. He presented to the world what humanity might become when united by faith with divinity. The only-begotten Son of God took upon Him the nature of man, and established His cross between earth and heaven.

Through the cross, man was drawn to God, and God to man. Justice moved from its high and awful position, and the heavenly hosts, the armies of holiness, drew near to the cross, bowing with reverence; for at the cross justice was satisfied. Through the cross the sinner was drawn from the stronghold of sin, from the confederacy of evil, and at every approach to the cross his heart relents and in penitence he cries, "It was my sins that crucified the Son of God." At the cross he leaves his sins, and through the grace of Christ his character is transformed.(GAG 74)


Here is speaks of justice being satisfied at the cross. What specifically happens to satisfy justice? Here are the things mentioned:

1.Christ presented to the world what humanity might become when united by faith with divinity.
2.Man is drawn to God, and God to man.
3.The sinner is drawn from the stronghold of sin.
4.In penitence the sinner cries, "It was my sins that crucified the Son of God."
5.The sinner leaves his sins, and through the grace of Christ his character is transformed.

These are the items mentioned in relation to justice being satisfied. I believe this is an accurate list. The last item, #5, is the bottom line (as what needs to happen, above all else, is that man be reconciled to God and His law, the principles by which He runs the universe, the law of life) but is not possible without items 1-4.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Mountain Man] #98241
04/15/08 06:45 PM
04/15/08 06:45 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
My previous post was quite detailed, so this one is less so. Items 1-5 refer to the list in my post previous to this one.

 Quote:
1. Why does justice demand that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed?


Because items 1-4, leading to 5, could not be accomplished without the cross.

 Quote:
2. In what sense did God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, meet both these requirements?


In the sense explained by items 1-5.

 Quote:
3. How did dying in man's stead exhaust the penalty and provide a pardon?


Same answer.

 Quote:
4. Why is it that in the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood?


Same answer.

 Quote:
5. Why must death come in consequence of man's sin?


Sin always leads to death. That's what sin does. As life follows obedience, so death follows sin. The sting of death is sin.

 Quote:
6. In what way did the beasts for sacrificial offerings prefigure Christ?


The slain beasts represented that Christ would be slain for our sins.

 Quote:
7. In the slain victim, man was to see the fulfillment for the time being of God's word, "Ye shall surely die". How did killing a lamb fulfill God's word?


It represented that death is the result of sin. In figure, the knife represents sin, and the beast represents Christ, thus Christ's death comes as the result of sin. The fact that the sinner himself kills the beast brings home the point that it is the sinner's sin which causes the death of Christ.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Tom] #98276
04/16/08 04:18 PM
04/16/08 04:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
Nowhere is it taught that God gave in to our demands to die on the cross.

Please quit doing this. I don't believe you do not understand I didn't mean this. I didn't say anything at all like this. Please quote what I actually said, or use some common sense if you're going to paraphrase something in your own words.

You wrote - "We required the sacrifice of Jesus' life in order to be saved." Here is the context:

 Quote:
#98002

1. What was the currency used to pay the price to redeem sinners?
TE: God's love and life given in Christ is the currency.

2. What was the price?
TE: The price was Jesus' life.

3. Who determined the ransom price?
TE: We required the sacrifice of Jesus' life in order to be saved.

4. When was the price paid?
TE: The price was paid when the life of Christ was given.

5. To whom was the price paid?
TE: I stated "not to whom, but for whom" and I also stated that it was for those whom God loved.

6. What was purchased?
TE: We were purchased, we being the human race.

7. What would have happened to A&E if Jesus hadn't agreed to pay the price to redeem sinners?
TE: If Christ had not given His life for the salvation of man, man would have been lost.

8. Why couldn't A&E or angels pay the price?
TE: The salvation of man requires the life of Christ, who was (and is) divine. An angel does not have salvific life to give to us.

Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Mountain Man] #98278
04/16/08 05:30 PM
04/16/08 05:30 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, I've written dozens upon dozens of pages on this! It's unfair of you to take this one sentence, which is a short answer to a question you asked, out of context and ascribe to it a different meaning than what I've given in the dozens, or hundreds, of pages I've written about this.

When I wrote "We required the sacrifice of Jesus' life in order to be saved." the meaning is the same as "We require 8 hours of sleep in order to be well rested." It's not a demand we are placing upon God, but that needs to happen in order for the desired result to take place.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Tom] #98289
04/17/08 04:23 PM
04/17/08 04:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, how does your clarifying answer improve your position? Jesus satisfied our unspoken need before He died on the cross.

Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Mountain Man] #98295
04/17/08 05:06 PM
04/17/08 05:06 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The clearest revelation of the truth was the cross. The cross revealed the truth about:

a)Satan
b)Death
c)Sin
d)Ourselves
e)God

It's clear that there were things that were not understood, even by holy angels, until the cross. In order for the Great Controversy to be won, it was necessary for the truth to be revealed.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Tom] #98321
04/17/08 10:22 PM
04/17/08 10:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Jesus revealed everything we need to know about the character and kingdom of God before He died on the cross. He said so Himself. The angels were convinced, way before the cross, that God is worthy of worship. What they observed on the cross did not change their minds about God. True, it confirmed what they suspected about Satan, but the cross did not change what they already believed about God.

Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Mountain Man] #98332
04/18/08 01:26 AM
04/18/08 01:26 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
This is from DA, the chapter "It Is Finished"

 Quote:
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Tom] #98357
04/18/08 06:06 PM
04/18/08 06:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, did you post this quote to support what I wrote above? Because it certainly does. Again, the angels were already convinced God is worthy of worship. The cross didn't change their minds about it. However, their suspicions about Satan were confirmed at the cross.

Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Mountain Man] #98382
04/19/08 04:02 AM
04/19/08 04:02 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Satan presented God as having his own attributes. The truth about God could only be made fully known by making fully known the truth about Satan.

My point has been that the cross was necessary to make known the truth. However, the cross should not be separated from the rest of Christ's life, as if it were a separate act. It was the climax of His life. His whole life was a gift, a sacrifice, a revelation of God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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