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The truth about the fall
#9831
07/30/03 06:18 PM
07/30/03 06:18 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Recently I have been asking a question of my Christian friends, warning them that they will inevitably get it wrong. So far I am batting 1.00. Here is the question.
When God gave Adam and Eve the command not to eat of the tree were they in the garden or outside of the garden?
The obvious answer is "In the garden" but that is wrong. Nor is the answer "Outside of the garden." It is a trick question but there was no other way of asking the question without providing a hint to the answer. When God gave the command in Gen. 2:16 only Adam was alive. Eve's creation did not occur until v. 20-23. Most Christians (modesty prevents me from saying all) are oblivious to the fact that Eve never heard God say "Don't eat of this tree." This, of course, places a completely different perspective on the serpent's question in Gen. 3:1.
Darius
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9832
07/30/03 07:21 PM
07/30/03 07:21 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Hi Darius, Yeah it does sound like a trick question, but I noticed a couple of things. First in Genesis 1:26,27 God created both Man and Woman. quote:
Genesis 1:26,27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Also in Genesis 3:1 It seems that Eve already knew what The Lord had commanded:
quote:
Genesis 3:2,3
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Now my question is that it seems that Genesis 2 seems to be what appears like a close-up of Earth, so how does this work? I mean in Genesis1 God created both man and woman, and I just noticed that the names were not given , but just man and woman which can be representative of God creating the entire human race by having man and woman? I look forward to reading your comments and insight as this is a good one indeed ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
God Bless,
Will
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9833
07/30/03 07:38 PM
07/30/03 07:38 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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We may be straining at gnats but the Genesis 2 account does not seem to follow a strict chronology of events.
Vs. 1-3 First sabbath kept
Vs. 3-6 Plants watered from beneath
Vs. 7 Adam is created
Vs. 8-14 Eden is created
Vs. 15 Adam is placed in Eden
Vs. 16-17 Adam is warned not to eat the forbidden tree
Vs. 18 God promises to make a help meet for Adam
Vs. 19 God creates animals and birds
Vs. 20 Adam names all the animals and birds
Vs. 21-22 Eve is created
According to the inspired chronology of Ellen White Adam was created in Eden. Animals and birds were created before Adam and named in Eden. Then God creates Eve. Next they are warned not to eat the forbidden fruit. Finally the first Sabbath is kept.
"The Lord created every tree in Eden pleasant to the eyes and good for food, and He bade Adam and Eve freely enjoy His bounties. But He made one exception. Of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they were not to eat. {6T 386.1}
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9834
07/30/03 08:17 PM
07/30/03 08:17 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Will, I think you are correct in saying that Gen. 2 is a close-up of earth. But Eve's response to the serpent only indicates that Adam told her what God had told him. It is interesting that he did. The command was to him alone. But when the woman was taken out of him Adam recognized her as a part of him. Thus what applied to him applied to her.
Without this understanding that Eve did not hear the command from God, it makes no sense for Moses to take the time to point out that the serpent was crafty. If Eve had heard the command from God there was no craftiness in how she was approached. Notice that the serpent never mentions the tree in question. Eve is the one who first mentions the tree. Second, the serpent never asked her to eat the fruit. We have accused the serpent of things he did not do, while ignoring what really happened.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9835
07/30/03 08:21 PM
07/30/03 08:21 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Mike, I guess it comes down to deciding whether we should judge Moses by EGW, or EGW by Moses. Thankfully, the matter is settled by the rest of the Bible. God's reaction to Eve's actions, and Paul's comment that she was deceived, indicate that Moses' chronology is correct. Eve did not hear it from God. Incidentally, Gen. 2 does not say the animals were created after Adam. I think the translation that says "Now God HAD created animals and brought them to Adam," allows for the creation of animals BEFORE Adam and the naming after Adam was created.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9836
07/31/03 02:55 AM
07/31/03 02:55 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Do we really have to take your word over Ellen White's? Are you sure there isn't some way to justify Sister White and Moses?
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9837
07/31/03 03:17 AM
07/31/03 03:17 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Do we really have to take your word over Ellen White's? Are you sure there isn't some way to justify Sister White and Moses?
Not when we consider God's response and Paul's commentary. If Eve had first hand knowledge Paul could not conclude she had been deceived. If you read 1 Tim. 2:12-14 carefully you will find that Paul makes a specious argument because of the influence of a male-dominated culture. His intent was to justify asking women to be silent, and he argued that man was made first and woman was the sinner. It would have been easier to make the claim that she was the sinner if he had said she disobeyed. In spite of his arguments he admits that she was deceived. Based on the facts we can conclude that she was truly deceived. If Paul was influenced by erroneous ideas and still maintains his authority as a messenger of God, we should not be afraid that EGW's ministry will be diminished by admitting that she was influenced by the erroneous views of the fall that were extant in her time. God did not stop Lucifer from exerting influence over Adam and Eve and over many of the patriarchs. Why do we think that EGW should be so special that we are prepared to deny her humanity?
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9838
08/01/03 03:14 AM
08/01/03 03:14 AM
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SDA
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Southwest USA
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How can Satan "deceive" Eve if she had no idea eating the fruit was forbidden? On the contrary, not only was Eve informed she took upon herself to add to God's prohibition. Deception involves getting someone to believe or to do something they know is wrong. Satan turned Eve's words against her and deceived her with them.
"Eve had overstated the words of God's command. He had said to Adam and Eve, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." In Eve's controversy with the serpent, she added "Neither shall ye touch it." Here the subtlety of the serpent appeared. This statement of Eve gave him advantage; he plucked the fruit and placed it in her hand, using her own words, He hath said, If ye touch it, ye shall die. You see no harm comes to you from touching the fruit, neither will you receive any harm by eating it. {Con 14.2}
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9839
08/01/03 03:46 AM
08/01/03 03:46 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
How can Satan "deceive" Eve if she had no idea eating the fruit was forbidden? On the contrary, not only was Eve informed she took upon herself to add to God's prohibition. Deception involves getting someone to believe or to do something they know is wrong. Satan turned Eve's words against her and deceived her with them.
She knew because Adam had told her. Lucifer planted seeds of doubt not concerning what God had said but about what Adam had reported. That is why her punishments did not relate to God but to Adam. Incidentally, what you described is not deception but persuasion. Deception involves getting someone to do what you want while thinking they are doing what they want. They do evil thinking they are doing good. This is why the courts will return your property to you if someone deceives you into transferring it to them. Also, if I get you to shoot at a target behind which I have tied a man the court will not convict you of murder because you were tricked into shooting a man while believing you were shooting at the side of an empty barn.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9840
08/01/03 02:57 AM
08/01/03 02:57 AM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I am satisfied that God warned Adam and Eve not to eat of the forbidden fruit. It is unlike God not to warn Eve personally.
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