"Do people experience rebirth before they crucify self, before they crucify the sins that stand in the way of rebirth and salvation?"

Oops! I meant to ask - Do people experience rebirth before they crucify self, before they crucify the sins that stand in the way of salvation?

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A person can experience rebirth before they learn the truth about such things (coffee, jewelry, sabbath keeping, etc). But they have not completed the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. There is a difference between experiencing rebirth and completing the process of conversion. Do you agree?

1. Was he guilty of sinning? If so, what was his sin?

2. Does this type of communication count as sinning? If so, why is the Holy Spirit waiting to reveal it to him? What if his wife leaves him over it?

3. Both topics are important. There is time for both. They are interrelated. I was simply asking you not to ignore what I asked by stating it isn't as important as focusing on the truth about God's character. The following quote is insightful:

SC 19
It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. {SC 19.1}

Tom, the following quote makes it clear that people who are abiding in Jesus do not unwittingly misrepresent Him in these ways:

1. By having a spirit contrary to the spirit of Christ.

2. By evilspeaking.

3. By foolish talking.

4. By words that are untruthful or unkind.

5. By shunning life's burdens.

6. By the pursuit of sinful pleasure.

7. By conforming to the world.

8. By uncourteous behavior.

9. By the love of their own opinions.

10. By justifying self.

11. By cherishing doubt.

12. By borrowing trouble.

13. By dwelling in darkness.


Do you agree that a newborn babe does not manifest these sinful habits while they are abiding in Jesus? The following quote reiterates the fact that people who are abiding in Jesus do not vent the clamorings of their fallen flesh nature.

I think you are misapprehending her intent. She says that Christ may be denied by any of a number of behaviors. She says "may." She doesn't say "must be."

She says that Christ may be denied by (list of behaviors), and you are understanding this to mean, no Christian, even a new-born babe in Christ, ever does any of these things.

"Shunning life's burdens." What does that mean? It's hard to believe a person would think they never missed on this one.

Here's another one:



You don't think this applies to you, even a little bit? You can't see that you've done either of these things, to even a small degree, in the years we've been discussing things on TWSFKAMSDAOL? (the web site formerly known as Maritime SDA online)

TE: TWSFKAMSDAOL

MM: Very funny.

Tom, there are several questions I've posted in the last few posts which I would like you to address. I will list them here again for your convenience:

1. Do people experience rebirth before they crucify self, before they crucify the sins that stand in the way of salvation?

2. A person can experience rebirth before they learn the truth about things like coffee, jewelry, sabbath keeping, etc. But they have not completed the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. There is a difference between experiencing rebirth and completing the process of conversion. Do you agree?

3. Was he guilty of sinning? If so, what was his sin?

4. Does this type of communication count as sinning? If so, why is the Holy Spirit waiting to reveal it to him? What if his wife leaves him because it is offensive to her?

5. Both topics are important. There is time for both. They are interrelated. I was simply asking you not to ignore what I asked by stating it isn't as important as focusing on the truth about God's character. The following quote is insightful. What do you think it means?

SC 19
It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. {SC 19.1}

TE: She says that Christ may be denied by (list of behaviors), and you are understanding this to mean, no Christian, even a new-born babe in Christ, ever does any of these things.

MM: This is the crux of the matter, isn't it? Please know that I am not saying Christians are never guilty of neglecting to abide in Jesus and reverting back to these types of sinful behaviors. What I am saying, which is what I think Sister White is saying, is that Christians, even newborn babes in Christ, do not and cannot commit these types of sins while they are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus.

Do you agree? If not, which listed sinful behavior do you believe newborn babes in Christ might still commit unwittingly because the Holy Spirit has not yet revealed it to them?

No, I disagree. She says on a number of occasions that the character is not revealed by the occasional misdeed or good deed, but by the trend. If our goal is to know more of God, to behold Him, to be like Him, then we will grow in grace, and that will happen. That doesn't mean that we can't occasionally sin. Moses is an example of this. How many people have known God as well as Moses did? But when he sinned, his repentance was quick, and deep.

Regarding newborn babes in Christ, the sin upon which Moses fell would certainly serve as an example. An "occasional misdeed" could cover just about anything, couldn't it?

Well, some sins are very premeditated, so it's hard to see how a Christian could do one of those while abiding in Jesus, assuming they knew what they were doing was wrong.

It seems to me that there are all sorts of things where a person is not convicted that something is wrong, and later on changes their mind, and becomes convicted that what they were doing indeed was wrong. For example, certain activities one does during Sabbath hours, or dealing with an immigration issue, or a complicated tax issue to name a couple that come to mind.

An even better example is coming to understand more fully what God is like. Having a false view of God can be a form of idolatry.

TE: That doesn't mean that we can't occasionally sin.

MM: While we are abiding in Jesus? Which one of the sins listed below will we commit unwittingly if we are abiding in Jesus?

1. By having a spirit contrary to the spirit of Christ.

2. By evilspeaking.

3. By foolish talking.

4. By words that are untruthful or unkind.

5. By shunning life's burdens.

6. By the pursuit of sinful pleasure.

7. By conforming to the world.

8. By uncourteous behavior.

9. By the love of their own opinions.

10. By justifying self.

11. By cherishing doubt.

12. By borrowing trouble.

13. By dwelling in darkness.

Tom, before you answer, please bear in mind this list comes from the following quote, in which she says, "In all these ways they declare that Christ is not in them." In other words, they cannot commit these sins while Christ is in them.

Tom, there are several questions I've posted recently which I would like you to address. I will list them here again for your convenience:

1. Do people experience rebirth before they crucify self, before they crucify the sins that stand in the way of salvation?

2. A person can experience rebirth before they learn the truth about things like coffee, jewelry, sabbath keeping, etc. But they have not completed the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. There is a difference between experiencing rebirth and completing the process of conversion. Do you agree?

3. Was he guilty of sinning? If so, what was his sin?

4. Does this type of communication count as sinning? If so, why is the Holy Spirit waiting to reveal it to him? What if his wife leaves him because it is offensive to her?

5. Both topics are important. There is time for both. They are interrelated. I was simply asking you not to ignore what I asked by stating it isn't as important as focusing on the truth about God's character. The following quote is insightful. What do you think it means?

SC 19
It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. {SC 19.1}