Bump for Tom.

I'm just saying what Paul said, which is that all are without excuse because of what God has revealed regarding to Himself to them by way of the things they made. This includes that God exists, and something of His character, which includes that we should be thankful to Him.

Tom, you agree with me that Sabbath-keeping cannot be learned from nature, right? If so, then that's one thing excluded in the "everything" Paul spoke about, right?

Paul also spoke of knowing about the Godhead. See verse below. Do you agree with me that the truth about the triune, Godhead cannot be learned from nature? Is this another thing that is excluded in Paul's "everything"?

Also, what in nature forbids making idols to represent God? And, what in nature forbids worshiping the idols we are inspired to make? Are these other aspects of the law that are excluded in Paul's "everything"?

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Romans 1:18-32 talks about people who knew the truth about God but turned their backs on Him and got caught up in all manner of sins when He gave them up. The wording Paul uses makes it clear he's not talking about people who never heard of Bible truths.

1. They hold the truth unrighteousness. Verse 18.

2. God hath showed it unto them. Verse 19.

3. They are without excuse. Verse 20.

4. They knew God. Verse 21.

5. They changed the truth of God into a lie. Verse 25.

6. They did not like to retain God in their knowledge. Verse 28.

7. They know the judgments of God. Verse 32.

8. They know that committing such sins will result in punishment and death. Verse 32.

MountainMan and Tom, I have enjoyed reading this discussion between you. There are some rather poignant verses in the Bible which might augment this discussion. I see that the topic has wandered a bit, but you will pardon me for bringing it back to the original subject. I am curious how you would interpret these following passages of scripture. Each of these is God speaking, and referencing multiple wives!

"If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish." (Exodus 21:10)

"...Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things." (2 Samuel 12:7-8)

So, my question is this: Would God give a commandment regarding how to deal with multiple wives if it were against the Ten Commandments to have them in the first place? Please do not overlook the location of this command either--mere verses past the declaration of the 10 Commandments, while God is still speaking. And would God have given David multiple wives, if it had been in direct opposition to those stone tablets?

Something to think about...

Blessings!

Green Cochoa, welcome. I've never seen a Green Cochoa before, so I looked it up online. Wow! What a beautiful bird. Have you seen it in the wild?

Regarding multiple wives, yes, it is interesting that God permitted it, even commanded it at times. Of course, it is not the ideal, but there was a place for it. Is polygamy a sin nowadays? Is Sister White right about it? And, does it represent an example of an unknown sin God winks at in born again believers today?

About the other aspects of this thread - what do you think? Are we born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments? And, can we learn "everything" about God by observing nature, or must we learn about the first four commandments by reading the Bible?

MountainMan,

Having spent some years in Asia, I believe firmly that all people born into this world are privileged to hear that still small voice of the Holy Spirit, speaking to them of what is right or wrong. Having said that, our "conscience," as we call it, is not equivalent to a Urim and Thummim where it will tell us "yes" or "no" to every potential situation. Our consciences, as Ellen White also mentions, must be educated through God's Word.

The Holy Spirit is limited to the most basic issues until we have received more light/education. I believe that without a knowledge of right and wrong, the Holy Spirit's voice would go unrecognized. Here in Asia, people do not believe in God. In Buddhism, there is no god, or there can be many gods, or you yourself are god, all depending on how you view it. But, everyone knows "instinctively" or "intuitively" that it is wrong to kill someone, wrong to steal, wrong to commit adultery, wrong to dishonor one's parents. I'm not sure it is quite so clear about the last commandment. Coveting is not always recognized as anything wrong in these cultures. It would only be wrong if you stole. Lying is also unclear. I've seen students who seemed to sincerely believe that cheating was only wrong if you were caught!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa

The buddhism they teach about in school has at its goal the complete ceacation of coveting, even coveting life itself. Is this an oversimplification?

MM, here are some SOP statements regarding polygamy:







To get back to the original topic, I started it because you made the claim that polygamy is a sin, but not a violation of the seventh commandment. I've been asking you to explain this. What commandment does it break? The fourth? The third? Which?

Given that God never sanctioned polygamy even once, how could He have commanded it?

Given that polygamy is contrary to His will, I have the same question. How does God command one to do something contrary to His will?

This is a good question, but I think we need to realize that God is so gracious that He often permits things which are contrary to His will, and even gives counsel in regards to such things. For example, God was very clear that it was not His will that Israel have a king (He wanted to be their king), but they rejected His will. God allowed them to have a king, and gave them counsel in regards to it.

Similarly, as Malachi tells us, God hates divorce. But because of the hardness of their hearts, as Jesus explained it, it was permitted.

So we should be very careful not to read into the fact that because God permits something to occur, or even gives counsel in regards to it, that the issue which God is permitting or giving counsel to is His will.

It's a wonderful thing that God is so gracious that He even gives us counsel in regards to things He's rather we didn't do.