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Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: Tom] #98281
04/17/08 01:53 AM
04/17/08 01:53 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
But there are those who say that unknown sins such as I have described do not need any confession or forgiveness. They say that only those sins which you knowingly and willfully commit need confession and forgiveness. Anything other than that incurs no guilt.


I don't understand how you are arriving at this conclusion based on the EGW quote. You wrote:

 Quote:
This strikes directly against the idea that confession and forgiveness are only required for willful sin.


The "this" here is EGW's quote. I don't see how you are reasoning from EGW's quote to the conclusion that confession and forgiveness are only required for willful sin.

That's because I'm not. I am saying the exact opposite. The AA 561 quote invalidates the argument that only willful sin requires confession and forgiveness. There are those who say that, but I'm not one of them.

 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
Now when you say that confession and forgiveness is necessary for unknown sins, who is confessing these sins? When are they forgiven?

Of course, the sinner confesses. He does it when he finds out.

 Quote:
Lev 4:27-28
And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth [somewhat against] any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

As for the exact timing of the forgiveness, that would involve a discussion on what constitutes forgiveness. Are we talking about the transfer of sin, covering by incense, or blotting out of the sanctuary? Any one or all of these could be considered "forgiveness." But I don't see the importance of the exact timing.

The bottom line is a transformation of nature such that sin causes deep sorrow, not because sin causes pain, but because sin is bad.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: Tom] #98287
04/17/08 05:14 PM
04/17/08 05:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
"Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature."

"they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God."

"passing through the corrupt channels of humanity"

...

Arnold, what does it mean to confess the "sinfulness of their nature"? How is it different than confessing a known sin, or an unknown sin, or a sin of omission, etc? Does God hold us accountable for the clamorings, the strivings for mastery of our sinful flesh nature?

What "defiles" their praise and prayers? Is it possible for a born again believer, who is abiding in Jesus, who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the man, to commit a known sin while praising God, while praying to Him?

What are "the corrupt channels of humanity"? How do they defile the praise and prayers of those who are abiding in Jesus? Dos God count us guilty of sinning because our praise and prayers pass through our corrupt human channels? Does He expect us to repent of our praise and prayers because they are sinful and unacceptable to Him?

Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: Mountain Man] #98329
04/18/08 01:53 AM
04/18/08 01:53 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Arthur, it should be obvious, from the context, that my question to you was missing a "not" or "un" or something. It should have been clear what I was asking. How do you get from EGW's statement to you assertion regarding willful sin?

 Quote:
Now when you say that confession and forgiveness is necessary for unknown sins, who is confessing these sins? When are they forgiven?

Of course, the sinner confesses. He does it when he finds out.


This is what I believe. So I'm even more perplexed as to your point and reasoning.

Waiting with baited breath ...


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: Tom] #98459
04/21/08 03:43 AM
04/21/08 03:43 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Keep that breath baited. My schedule was hijacked last week, and I'm slowly catching up to all the fun I missed.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: asygo] #98467
04/21/08 02:16 PM
04/21/08 02:16 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
A colleague of mine would respond "Get that hook out of your mouth!" (to the statement "I'm waiting with baited breath").


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: Tom] #98487
04/22/08 09:05 AM
04/22/08 09:05 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
Now when you say that confession and forgiveness is necessary for unknown sins, who is confessing these sins? When are they forgiven?

Of course, the sinner confesses. He does it when he finds out.


This is what I believe. So I'm even more perplexed as to your point and reasoning.

 Originally Posted By: Larry Kirkpatrick
All sins of ignorance have been provided for in God's plan of redemption. In His suffering and death, Jesus has made atonement for all sins of ignorance. This atonement also covers all the effects of sin, such as illness, mental and physical defects, and deterioration leading to death. Neither sins of ignorance nor the effects of sin incur guilt or condemnation, and they do not require repentance, confession, or forgiveness. These responses apply only to sins for which we are guilty. When we become aware of something wrong which previously was done in ignorance, then guilt enters the picture and then such responses become appropriate and necessary. LK

My point is that AA 561 contradicts the sentiments I underlined above, because it speaks of confession by those who do not knowingly sin.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: asygo] #98494
04/22/08 03:21 PM
04/22/08 03:21 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
]My point is that AA 561 contradicts the sentiments I underlined above, because it speaks of confession by those who do not knowingly sin.


To set the context, we've been discussing sins of ignorance.

"Neither sins of ignorance nor the effects of sin incur guilt or condemnation, and they do not require repentance, confession, or forgiveness."

"Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature."

I don't wish to be construed as necessarily agreeing with anything LK might say on this question, but I don't see any contradiction here in regards to sins of ignorance. He says that sins of ignorance do not require confession, and you say this contradicts a statement which speaks of mean confessing the sinfulness of their nature. Where's the contradiction?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: Mountain Man] #98495
04/22/08 03:22 PM
04/22/08 03:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, I am reposting the following post for you to address. Thank you.

 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature."

"they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God."

"passing through the corrupt channels of humanity"

...

Arnold, what does it mean to confess the "sinfulness of their nature"? How is it different than confessing a known sin, or an unknown sin, or a sin of omission, etc? Does God hold us accountable for the clamorings, the strivings for mastery of our sinful flesh nature?

What "defiles" their praise and prayers? Is it possible for a born again believer, who is abiding in Jesus, who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the man, to commit a known sin while praising God, while praying to Him?

What are "the corrupt channels of humanity"? How do they defile the praise and prayers of those who are abiding in Jesus? Dos God count us guilty of sinning because our praise and prayers pass through our corrupt human channels? Does He expect us to repent of our praise and prayers because they are sinful and unacceptable to Him?

Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: Mountain Man] #98496
04/22/08 03:28 PM
04/22/08 03:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, I agree with Tom. Pastor Larry's comment about sins of ignorance is in agreement with the Bible and the SOP. God does not count us guilty of sins of ignorance. Yes, Jesus paid the price for this luxury, and people are required to repent once they become aware of it, but in the meantime they are forgiven if they are living up to the light they have been privileged to receive.

Re: What does "Blameless" and "Upright" before God mean...? [Re: Mountain Man] #98640
04/24/08 11:14 PM
04/24/08 11:14 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Sorry, but I have to disappear again. My father-in-law unexpectedly died last night. I'll be back.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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