Tom, it hasn't happened yet, so how can you sit there and say with certainty how it will and will not play out?

Also, do you agree with the following statements? If not, why not?

1. God used literal fire to punish and destroy the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.

2. God used literal fire to punish and destroy Nadab and Abihu.

3. God has commanded holy angels to kill sinners.

4. God has commanded humans to kill sinners.

5. God gives evil angels permission to kill sinners.

Regarding this question, it's easy, by knowing that God is like Jesus Christ.

Regarding the other questions, we've discussed these questions at length in the past, they can't be answered by "yes" or "no," and I'm involved (mostly with you) in at least half a dozen other threads, so I'll take a pass for now, OK?

I'm quite sure you already know my answers to these questions (or at least you should!, given the amount of time we've discussed them)

Here is some interesting second input on this: http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2008/04/17/is-hell-real/

Tom, we learn what God is like from how He has acted in the past, right? Your unwillingness to examine the past creates an unnatural void. Do I know how you would respond to the following statements? No, not really. But, I'll attempt to answer for you.

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1. God used literal fire to punish and destroy the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.

TE: No. God merely withdrew His protection and gave evil angels permission to use literal fire to destroy them.

2. God used literal fire to punish and destroy Nadab and Abihu.

TE: This is true.

3. God has commanded holy angels to kill sinners.

TE: No. God merely commanded the holy angels to withdraw their protection and allow the evil angels to kill them.

4. God has commanded humans to kill sinners.

TE: This is true.

5. God gives evil angels permission to kill sinners.

TE: This is true.

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How did I do? Did I misrepresent you in any way. If so, please correct it.

By the way, if God did indeed use literal fire to punish and destroy Nadab and Abihu shouldn't we expect, according to the SOP, to see Jesus demonstrate this attribute of God's character during His earthly sojourn? That is, when did Jesus punish and destroy sinners with literal fire while here in the flesh?

Thomas, what did you get out of reading Father Stephen's comments about heaven and hell?

It is a view that adds some points of consideration that you and Tom might benefit from.

This certainly agrees with what I've been saying.

Our problem is that we have misinterpreted how God acted in the past. This has been my whole point. Jesus Christ showed us what God is really like, which is not what we thought He was like.

What I'm suggesting is that we allow what we see in Jesus' life and teachings be the some and substance of what we understand God to be like. No qualities of God are revealed in the Old Testament that did not exist in Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ is a full and complete revelation of God, if we see (our idea, not reality) God acting in a different way that how we see Jesus Christ acting, our view of what God was doing is off. Jesus showed what God was really doing by doing the same thing Himself. That's what He said, "What I see My Father do, I do."

So much so that Jesus could truthfully say, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."



We've discussed this at length in the past.

Regarding the questions you asked, I really couldn't answer them yes or no. I can say that in general terms I see the following principles applying:

a)Force is not a principle of God's government. Therefore an explanation of an event which depends upon God's using force must be suspect.

b)God, in inspiration, often takes responsibility for doing that which He permits. For example, the phrase "God sent fiery serpents upon Israel" means "God withdrew His protection, and the snakes which were already there came upon Israel". This one principle explains many scenarios.

c)Nature is not self-working. God is so wonderful a designer and manager that it appears this way, but it's not. If God withdraws from His management, chaos ensues.

d)If we want to know how God reacts to sin and sinners, all we need to is look at Jesus Christ and see what He did.

Tom, is Father Stephen a heretic? His views certainly do not agree with his employer.

TE: b)God, in inspiration, often takes responsibility for doing that which He permits. For example, the phrase "God sent fiery serpents upon Israel" means "God withdrew His protection, and the snakes which were already there came upon Israel". This one principle explains many scenarios.

MM: Does this apply to the fire that killed Nadab and Abihu? Did God step aside and allow evil angels to kill them with fire? If so, when did Jesus demonstrate this aspect of God's character? That is, when did He step aside and allow evils to kill sinners with fire?

If God did indeed use literal fire to punish and destroy Nadab and Abihu, when did Jesus demonstrate this attribute of God's character? When did Jesus punish and destroy sinners with literal fire while here in the flesh?