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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98693
04/26/08 01:12 AM
04/26/08 01:12 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Does this apply to the fire that killed Nadab and Abihu? Yes. (that God is credited for that which He permits) Did God step aside and allow evil angels to kill them with fire? I think their death was most likely self-inflicted. If so, when did Jesus demonstrate this aspect of God's character? NA That is, when did He step aside and allow evils to kill sinners with fire? We already discussed this at length. If God did indeed use literal fire to punish and destroy Nadab and Abihu, when did Jesus demonstrate this attribute of God's character? This isn't an attribute of God's character. That's exactly the point. That Jesus never demonstrated this is proof that this is not an attribute of God's character. That's the point I've been making. If we want to know what God is like, all we need do is simply note what Jesus did. That's what God is like. We should allow the clear revelation of Jesus Christ to correct our dull misunderstandings of the OT God. When did Jesus punish and destroy sinners with literal fire while here in the flesh? Same point. He didn't, which demonstrates that God doesn't. When He was asked to He said, "You know not of what spirit you are" and He was right. We are of the spirit of Satan, but don't even know it, attributing to God that which Satan does, which is just what he wants. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. (GC 35)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#98710
04/26/08 03:53 AM
04/26/08 03:53 AM
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Tom, have you changed your mind? I seem to recall you saying this was an example of God using literal fire to kill sinners. Also, how did they cause literal fire to come out from the presence of God in the holy of holies?
And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. (Lev 10:2)
For this sin a fire went out from the Lord and devoured them in the sight of the people. {PP 359.2}
Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin. {4aSG 125.1}
A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98712
04/26/08 04:28 AM
04/26/08 04:28 AM
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Tom, who or what caused the earth to open up and swallow the sinners who opposed the authority of Moses and Aaron? Who or what caused the fire that killed the 250 sinners who sided with them? Here's the account: The eyes of all Israel were fixed upon Moses as they stood, in terror and expectation, awaiting the event. As he ceased speaking, the solid earth parted, and the rebels went down alive into the pit, with all that pertained to them, and "they perished from among the congregation." The people fled, self-condemned as partakers in the sin. {PP 400.5}
But the judgments were not ended. Fire flashing from the cloud consumed the two hundred and fifty princes who had offered incense. These men, not being the first in rebellion, were not destroyed with the chief conspirators. They were permitted to see their end, and to have an opportunity for repentance; but their sympathies were with the rebels, and they shared their fate. {PP 401.1} The following morning a group of sinners attributed the judgments of God to Satan. They blamed Moses and Aaron for what happened and they purposed to kill them. Here's the account: Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom. {PP 404.4} A plagued killed 14,000 sinners. Here's what happened: He pleaded that the wrath of God might not utterly destroy the people of His choice. By his intercession he stayed the arm of vengeance, that a full end might not be made of disobedient, rebellious Israel. {PP 402.4}
But the minister of wrath had gone forth; the plague was doing its work of death. By his brother's direction, Aaron took a censer and hastened into the midst of the congregation to "make an atonement for them." "And he stood between the dead and the living." As the smoke of the incense ascended, the prayers of Moses in the tabernacle went up to God; and the plague was stayed; but not until fourteen thousand of Israel lay dead, an evidence of the guilt of murmuring and rebellion. {PP 402.5} Tom, do you agree with the people that it was Satan who caused those terrible judgments that killed so many sinners? Or, do you believe God caused it? Or, did the sinners somehow make it happen to themselves? Who or what caused the plague that killed the other sinners?
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98719
04/26/08 06:54 PM
04/26/08 06:54 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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I don't see any point in responding to these questions. If you believe that God uses His supernatural power to keep people alive so that He can burn them with literal fire in order to make them pay for their sins by suffering excruciating pain, I see no point.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#98731
04/27/08 02:52 AM
04/27/08 02:52 AM
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Tom, what are you talking about? Are you hiding from the truth? Are you dodging issues you are uncomfortable with? In my last two posts I brought up legitimate points, and now you want to bow out under a bogus pretense? What's up with that? People usually run and hide when they can't defend what they believe in light of compelling evidence. Is that what you're doing?
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98738
04/27/08 04:00 AM
04/27/08 04:00 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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No, I just think the possibility of your understanding what I'm saying is nil, given how your understanding that God will supernaturally keep people alive so that He can burn them to make them pay for their sins. If you want to talk about that some more, we can do so. But until we come to an agreement on that topic, I don't see the point in talking about this one.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98743
04/27/08 09:14 AM
04/27/08 09:14 AM
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The “fire” of hell is not a material fire, but itself nothing other than the fire of the Living God (Hebrews 12:29). For those who love God, His fire is light and life, purification and all good things. For those who hate God, His fire is torment, though it be love. This certainly agrees with what I've been saying. Tom, is Father Stephen a heretic? His views certainly do not agree with his employer. Hmm, what would Stephens employer say about hell?
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: vastergotland]
#98752
04/27/08 05:16 PM
04/27/08 05:16 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Hmm, I missed this. I don't know anything about Father Stephen. I just note that what he wrote is in harmony with what I've been presenting. For example: The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.(DA 108) The glory of God is His character. The light of that glory, fire if you will, gives life to the righteous but slays the wicked. Another thought I've shared: Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation
Page 543
were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542, 543)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#98753
04/27/08 05:25 PM
04/27/08 05:25 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM, you believe that God killed people with literal fire. You do not see this as being out of harmony with God's character. You ask where in Jesus' life did He do such a thing (apparently because you do not believe the principle that Jesus revealed everything that man can know about God is true).
This is my point exactly! When Jesus was asked to do this thing, which you view as being in harmony with God's character, He responded, "You know not of what spirit you are." In other words, this thing is not in harmony with God's character, but rather in harmony with the character of the evil one.
So here's how we differ. You:
1.God kills people by burning them with literal fire (God will even punishes them with it, supernatually keeping them alive so they can suffer the punishment of the flames).
2.Jesus didn't reveal this aspect of God's character.
3.Therefore Jesus did not reveal everything we can know about God's character.
Me:
1.Jesus revealed everything we need to know, or can know, about God.
2.Jesus did not kill anyone with literal fire, and, furthermore, when urged to do so responded that this was in harmony with the character of the evil one, not with God's character.
3.Therefore the idea that God kills people with literal fire is suspect.
We differ as to what the bottom line is. I believe the bottom line is that when we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father. IOW, God the Father is like Jesus Christ. Since Jesus did not reveal a God who kills people with literal fire, and, indeed, taught the opposite, we can safely conclude that God is not like that.
You believe the bottom line is that God kills people with fire. Therefore, because Jesus did not reveal that, the idea that Jesus revealed all that we can know about God is false.
We both appear to agree that Jesus, during His lifetime with us in the flesh, did not reveal that God kills people with literal fire.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"?
[Re: Tom]
#98778
04/28/08 02:02 AM
04/28/08 02:02 AM
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TE: "God will even punishes them with it, supernatually keeping them alive so they can suffer the punishment of the flames."
MM: Since you know this isn't what I believe, I'm shocked and offended you keep saying it.
TE: We both appear to agree that Jesus, during His lifetime with us in the flesh, did not reveal that God kills people with literal fire.
MM: The way you just stated it doesn't reflect what I believe. I will reword your summary of me with the necessary corrections so it actually reflects what I believe.
1. God has used literal fire in the past to punish and destroy impenitent sinners. He will do it one last time in the lake of fire.
2. Jesus didn't demonstrate this aspect of God's character while here in the flesh. He demonstrated it is possible for born again believers to obey God's law. He satisfied the just and loving demands of law and justice by tasting and conquering our sin and second death on the cross.
3. The fact He didn't demonstrate the "strange acts" of God while here in the flesh is evidence it is not necessary for us to understand it better than it is explained in the OT in order to win our love and loyalty or to save us from sin and damnation.
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