TE: You seem to be suggesting that Jesus did not reveal that God destroys by literal fire those who disobey Him because this is something which couldn't be comprehended. Am I understanding you correctly?

MM: Jesus did not reveal this aspect of God's character while here in flesh because it conflicted with the purpose of His messianic mission. He came to save us from our sins, not to destroy us with them. There is a time and place for everything. The time and place to destroy sin and sinners is after the millennium.

The disciples were not ready to understand the truth about God's justice and judgment. They were all too ready to wield the sword. True, Jesus spoke often about the destruction of sin and sinners at the end of time, but He focused more on the grace and mercy of God. If Jesus had gone about executing justice and judgment, the disciples would not have understood the truth about grace and mercy. And, they would have totally misunderstand the truth about justice and judgment, too.

Luke
3:17 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them]. And they went to another village.

Revelation
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Hebrews
9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Tom, the quote you posted is not talking about the 7 last plagues. You cannot cite this reference and assume it explains all the different ways God has executed justice and judgment since the beginning of time. The following quotes make it clear God uses both holy and evil angels to accomplish His purposes in executing justice and judgment.

God's judgments were awakened against Jericho. It was a stronghold. But the Captain of the Lord's host Himself came from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in an attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground.--3T 264 (1873). {LDE 243.1}

Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.--DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}

The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber. It was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God.--AA 152 (1911). {LDE 243.3}

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.--GC 614 (1911). {LDE 243.4}

In addition to this insight is the biblical testimony recorded in the Revelation. The prophecy plainly says holy angels will pour out the 7 last plagues when God gives them the order to do so. Here's how it is described:

Revelation
15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.


Actually, I was referring to the fire that came out of "the cloud of glory" and killed the 250 sinners. Attributing this to Satan is what sealed the doom of the 14,000 who died during the plague. I assume you do not believe Satan had a hand in the fire that killed them. But where did this literal fire come from? She says it came out of the cloud of glory.

Can you explain away this fire citing some natural law or occurrence? Do you dare?

Your view regarding the earth opening up and killing the sinners is quite fanciful. Where in the Bible or the SOP is such a thing described? I mean, where is it taught that God simply allowed an earthquake to kill the sinners? Besides, it wasn't even an earthquake. Moses prayed for "a new thing" to happen to prove beyond doubt that their death and destruction was of God and not something that could be explained away as natural, as you are attempting to do. Here is how it is described:

You wrote, "God will punish them, by literally setting them on fire and continue burning them until they have been sufficiently punished." Nowhere does it say God will set them on fire or continue burning them. It simply says what I wrote above. That's the difference.


Obviously we cannot both agree it is true. I explained why.


While here in the flesh, when did Jesus withdraw His protection and allow sinners to die?

While here in the flesh, when did Jesus lead an army of angels to destroy the walls of a city which killed sinners in the process?

God's judgments were awakened against Jericho. It was a stronghold. But the Captain of the Lord's host Himself came from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in an attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground.--3T 264 (1873). {LDE 243.1}

While here in the flesh, when did Jesus command holy angels to kill the armies of the enemy?

Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.--DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}

Don't you believe God sets the wicked on fire? You do believe they are set on fire, right? If it's not God who does this, who is it?

Don't you believe God rains fire on them from heaven, and they burst into flames? If so, this is certainly equivalent to saying that God sets them on fire. If not, what do you believe?



I wrote, "Jesus never revealed, during in His life with us in the flesh, that God kills people with literal fire." Do you disagree with this? (just this one sentence; suppose it was someone else who wrote it besides me).



IMO, you're going at this backwards. Look at what Christ did in the flesh, and that's what God did in the OT. This is what it means to say, "All that man can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His son." Or, to put it another way, this is what is meant when Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."

Jesus and the Father are one. God the Father is just like Jesus Christ. God acts no differently than Jesus Christ acted while with us in the flesh. This is, in reality, what God is really like.

Again, we are told the wicked will suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness in fire God rains down from above and in fire that comes up from below. That's it. We aren't told how He will do it. We aren't told how they suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness.

I agree that it is difficult to imagine how humans and angels can be in a lake of fire together and not burn up at the same time. But this doesn't give us the right to assume the fire isn't literal. The inspired descriptions of the lake of fire are too clear to ignore, to spiritualize away, or to twist to mean something other than what they plainly say.


I cannot divorce this statement from the context of this discussion. So, no, I do not agree with it. If you worded it the way I suggested earlier I would have no problem with it. Jesus did not demonstrate, while here in the flesh, the fact God has destroyed sinners with literal fire.


Tom, you are in essence asking me to ignore the obvious meaning of what Sister White wrote. You are asking me to interpret what she wrote in a way that totally contradicts what she wrote. Is that right or safe?

For example, you are asking me to read the following passage to mean Jesus commanded the angels to simply stop preventing the walls from falling on sinners and killing them.

God's judgments were awakened against Jericho. It was a stronghold. But the Captain of the Lord's host Himself came from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in an attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground.--3T 264 (1873). {LDE 243.1}

For example, you are asking me to read the following passage to mean Jesus commanded the angels to simply stop preventing sinners from dying of natural causes.

Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.--DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}

All right, let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that Sister White expected us to interpret what she wrote above to mean Jesus commanded the angles to simply stop preventing things from happening that naturally cause people to suffer and die. Did Jesus demonstrate this aspect of God's character while sojourning here in the flesh? If not, why not?

Tom, please address #98859 and #98860. Thank you.

This disagrees with both Scripture and the SOP. From Scripture we read that Jesus came to "show us what God is really like." (John 1:18 CEV). Jesus claimed to have done so in His prayer of John 17, and earlier in John when He said, "When You've seen Me, You've seen the Father."

From the SOP we read that *all* that man can know about God was revealed by Jesus Christ. Yet you believe not all was revealed, but just some, because some things, such as things that you are in disagreement with me regarding, weren't revealed.

Clearly you have to take this position, or else admit that the ideas don't agree with what Jesus taught. But, this isn't what the statement says:



There's really no way should could have said any more clearly or emphatically that all that we can know about God was revealed by Jesus Christ. Note she said "only that which He sees fit to reveal can we comprehend." The natural question is, "What did He see fit to reveal?" The answer is, that which Christ revealed. This is the clear line of thought.

You're suggesting Christ deliberately didn't reveal certain things about God. Then, from the statement, these are things we can't comprehend.



God doesn't change. There's a principle involved here, which is that God is a Savior, not a Destroyer. Sin/Satan destroys, not God.



This is an aspect of character, not of circumstances.

Regarding post #98860







These sure look similar to me. Since the last quote does not specifically use the word "plague," we'll set it aside for now. From the first quote we see that:

1.The four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues.
2.The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed.
3.Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent.
4.The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.
5.Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.
6.Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.
7.As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose.
8.The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

It's interesting that she references the destruction of Jerusalem, because we see the same principles at work.



Just replace "the Jews" with "the finally impenitent." Just as there are those who attribute the destruction of Jerusalem to God, when in reality Satan was responsible, so there are those who do the same thing for the plagues. But the principle is the same in both events, which is that God protects the wicked, and when He removes that protection chaos ensues.

So you are, indeed, affirming that God sets them on fire, which is what I said.



So you agree the fire is literal. I don't see what there is to disagree about in regards to my characterization of your view. God sets the wicked on fire and keeps them on fire until He's through punishing them, at which point they die. That's how you see things, isn't it?



"Has" isn't good. "Will" would be better. E.g. "Jesus did not demonstrate, while here in the flesh, the fact God will destroy sinners with literal fire." You agree with that, right?



Yes. We've discussed this, and I cited a number of examples.

Let's start with just one point for now. When God is mistreated, how does He respond? Does He smite His enemies? Or does He simply withdraw?

There are a number of things to consider in relation to God's character. For example:

1.How are the wicked destroyed?
2.How does Christ's death save us?
3.What causes the last seven plagues?
4.How should we understand the episodes in Scripture where God is said to have done this or that destructive thing?
5.How should we understand the episodes in Scripture where God is said to have commanded people to do this and that (violent things)?

Without question, the most difficult of these to understand are the last two. So I'm proposing we stick to the first three. I see no possibility that we will agree on points 4 or 5 if we disagree regarding the first 3.

One further comment is that if one is comfortable with idea of God's doing that which is attributed to Him, just as things appear to be on the surface, then one won't see any reason to interpret things in any other way. The question only comes up when one considers what Christ lived and taught and sees a disconnect between that and the common understanding of what happened in the OT. If one sees no disconnect, that sort of ends the conversation.

Why do you omit the phrase "needs to know"? There are countless things to know about God, but what are the things about His character that are essential for us to know? And, why is it critical for us to know them about God?

Would it prevent us from experiencing rebirth and salvation if we were unable to learn and comprehend the things about God's character that are important for us to know? Why do we have the need to know? Does our salvation depend on us knowing and comprehending them?

What are some of the aspects of God's character that are *not* essential to our salvation to know and comprehend? What are some of the aspects of His character that God did not see fit to reveal to us, aspects that He expects us to humbly accept we are simply unable at this time to comprehend?

Whatever aspects of His character God saw fit not to reveal or explain to us at this time are the same aspects we should expect not to see demonstrated in the life of Christ while He was here in the flesh. God expects us to rest satisfied with not knowing or being able to comprehend those aspects of His character He has not seen fit to reveal to us at this time.