If I'm understanding your interpretation correctly, that's not the point she's making, and it (your interpretation) does not correspond to reality. People do not become instantly perfect when they are born again.



If I recall correctly, I think I said I'm taking a break on this question for awhile. Isn't that right?



I think I addressed this by pointing out that the character is not changed at resurrection.



I suppose it depends upon one defines things. Given the thief on the cross died within hours of being converted, he had no time to undergo much in the way of character development. So whatever character defects are revealed when one is converted would apply to him.

I take it your position is that God never reveals any character defects to any converted person ever, because they were already revealed when they were converted? Is this correct? If so, that's not realistic, IMO.

TE: If I'm understanding your interpretation correctly, that's not the point she's making, and it (your interpretation) does not correspond to reality. People do not become instantly perfect when they are born again.

MM: What do they become the instant they are born again? If they have some of the sinful habits they had prior to rebirth, in what way are they different?

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TE: "So, again, what kind of cultivated defective traits of character can the Holy Spirit leave unrevealed and uncrucified until after a born again person is resurrected?" I think I addressed this by pointing out that the character is not changed at resurrection.

MM: Do you think they will have time to confess and crucify unrevealed and uncrucified defective traits of character in heaven? For example, the sinful habits the thief didn't have time to discover and crucify, will he correct them in heaven?

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TE: I take it your position is that God never reveals any character defects to any converted person ever, because they were already revealed when they were converted? Is this correct? If so, that's not realistic, IMO.

MM: God does not wait until after someone is born again to reveal to them a cultivated defective trait of character. He does, however, reveal to them uncultivated, dormant traits in order to prepare them for a new line of work. But these are traits they never knew existed, traits they have not turned into character by sinning repetitiously.

Regarding reality as it relates to the experience of most professing believers? Here's what she wrote about it. Do you think things have gotten better since she gave us these facts and figures?

Much of the faith which we see is merely nominal; the real, trusting, persevering faith is rare. {CC 85.3}

Such patient, prayerful, and persevering fidelity as was possessed by these saints of God [Caleb, Hannah, and Dorcas] is rare; yet the church cannot prosper without it. {CSW 159.1}

Genuine faith, sustained by works, is rare. {CS 152.3}

With many, religious faith and principles are mingled with worldly customs and practices, and pure and undefiled religion is rare. {CT 478.1}

Religious faith and principles have become deteriorated, mingled with worldly customs and practices, and for this reason pure and undefiled religion is rare. {MM 38.4}

A character unsullied before God is rare. {4T 622.2}

The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {6BC 1075.7}

It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner. {ChS 41.1}

Not one in a hundred among us is doing anything beyond engaging in common, worldly enterprises. We are not half awake to the worth of the souls for whom Christ died. {ChS 81.5}

I saw that there is not one in twenty of the youth who knows what experimental religion is. {MYP 383.3}

There is not one in twenty who knows the beauty, the real essence, of Christ's ministry. {1MCP 185.3}

There is not one in one hundred who understands for himself the Bible truth on this subject (the plan of salvation) that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare. {1SM 359.2}

Not one in twenty of those who have a good standing with Seventh-day Adventists is living out the self-sacrificing principles of the word of God. {1T 632.2}

Forgiven.



Before they were at war with God, now they are at peace with Him. Before they lived for self; now they live for God. Before they were not at harmony with God, nor with the principles of His kingdom; now they are.

The publican is a good example. He smote his breast, asked for mercy, and went away justified.



It seems pretty clear that the thief on the cross had no character defects that would keep him from entering heaven.



So it sounds like you are agreeing with my characterization of your position. If so, I don't agree that one instantly becomes cured of all of ones defects. I don't believe such a thing is possible. It takes time for us to comprehend our defects. Our brains are not such that we grasp these things in a moment.

Regarding your "rare" quotes, I agree that these things are rare, and I believe the reason is because of an unfamiliarity with the Gospel. Had the message God gave us through Jones and Waggoner been accepted, long ago the world (and the church, of course) would have been prepared for the coming of Christ.

You are joking, right? Exactly how is it clear that a criminal deserving the capital punishment had no character defects?

I didn't say that. I said "no character defects that would keep him from entering heaven."

And what kind of character defects would that be? That lead you to criminal activity but wouldn't keep you out of heaven? Or better yet, what kind of character defect would keep you out of heaven?

Rebellion against God is a character defect that would keep you out of heaven. Living for self is another.

Thomas, there are plenty of examples of cultivated defective traits of character that would keep someone out of heaven. Paul lists lots of them in Galatians 5.

Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The thing I'm still trying to learn from Tom is which ones will not keep people out of heaven, sinful habits they can take to the grave and work on in heaven after the resurrection. So far it is not clear to me what he thinks about it. Hopefully he'll get around to addressing the concern before too long.

Tom, you wrote, "People do not become instantly perfect when they are born again." But they are instantly forgiven, right? In the eyes of God, aren't they also perfect at that same instant?


I agree, but perhaps you misunderstood my question. I'm talking about people who are born again with some of their former sinful habits still in tact. Are these people living in harmony with God and the principles of His kingdom? If so, which principles?


I agree. But, are you leaving room for cultivated sinful habits he didn't confess and crucify? If so, will he have time to confess and crucify them in heaven? Also, please name an example of a cultivated sinful habit that will not keep someone out of heaven.


That's not what I believe either. Let me explain. It is during the long "patient, protracted process" of conversion that the Holy Spirit lovingly reveals all of our defective traits of character in light of the cross. "... it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process." (DA 172) Do you see the difference?

Also, please understand that they must labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive (the l.a.w.s of fighting the good fight of faith) to abide in Jesus, to keep their former defects and imperfections from resurfacing. Although dead and buried, our old man habits of sin are never far from the surface, never more than a heartbeat away from enslaving us again. We must abide in Jesus or perish with our sins.


I agree, but it didn't happen. Why? Is it because people are still resisting the message? Is it because people do not believe we are born again dead to sin and awake to righteousness? Is it because people believe we are born again with some of our sinful habits still in tact? Is it because these same people blame it on the Holy Spirit?

No, not in the sense of "perfect" in the context of my statement and our discussion. E.g., they are not instantly made aware of all sins/sinful habits/character defects the moment they are born again.



The following comes into play in this situation:





Since he had not cultivated sinful habits that would keep him out of heaven, it is not necessary to give him time to do so.

What keeps people out of heaven is being out of harmony with God. When one decided to repent, God reveals to the person that which he needs to know in order to be made right with Him. No inspired statement says that God has to reveal everything evil about ourselves before this can happen. It seems to me that one must vastly underestimate our wickedness to even consider this a possibility.



Polygamy.