"Notwithstanding they had had the most convincing evidence of God's displeasure at their course, in the destruction of the men who had deceived them, they dared to attribute His judgments to Satan, declaring that through the power of the evil one, Moses and Aaron had caused the death of good and holy men. It was this act that sealed their doom. {PP 404.4}

Tom, this sounds like what you are doing - attributing to Satan the judgments of God. Wouldn't Moses warn you off such ground if he were here today? For this reason they sealed their doom. A plague killed 14,000 of them before God honored Moses' pleas to cease destroying them. How many more would have died if Moses had not interceded?

Also, if a king ordered soldiers to apprehend you, would you call fire down from heaven to destroy them, not once but twice?

If you were called to take over where Elijah left off, and if a bunch of young people were making fun of you, would you command bears to attack them?

If you were a leader in the days of the early church, and a man and wife lied about an offering they gave to you, would you expect God to kill them in front of your eyes?

If you were one of the angels pouring out the seven last plagues upon the wicked inhabitants of the earth, if you were watching them suffer under the terrible scourges, would you cry out, Thou art righteous, O Lord, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works. So much torment and sorrow give her.

We've discussed many of these issue. I'll address one, the last plagues.



The plagues come about as God withdraws his protection.

I guess I'll also mention that I do not believe that Moses was working by the power of Satan in the judgments against the rebels. This is the earthquake one, right? I can think of two explanations in harmony with what Jesus Christ revealed.

1.God knew the earthquake would happen, and did nothing to prevent it.

2.God had been preventing an earthquake from happening, but ceased holding it back.

Regarding how you view things, what actions that Christ took during His life would correspond to your ideas?

TE: "God will even punishes them with it, supernatually keeping them alive so they can suffer the punishment of the flames."

MM: Since you know this isn't what I believe, I'm shocked and offended you keep saying it.

TE: We both appear to agree that Jesus, during His lifetime with us in the flesh, did not reveal that God kills people with literal fire.

MM: The way you just stated it doesn't reflect what I believe. I will reword your summary of me with the necessary corrections so it actually reflects what I believe.

1. God has used literal fire in the past to punish and destroy impenitent sinners. He will do it one last time in the lake of fire.

2. Jesus didn't demonstrate this aspect of God's character while here in the flesh. He demonstrated it is possible for born again believers to obey God's law. He satisfied the just and loving demands of law and justice by tasting and conquering our sin and second death on the cross.

3. The fact He didn't demonstrate the "strange acts" of God while here in the flesh is evidence it is not necessary for us to understand it better than it is explained in the OT in order to win our love and loyalty or to save us from sin and damnation.

Tom, the quote you posted is not talking about the 7 last plagues. You cannot cite this reference and assume it explains all the different ways God has executed justice and judgment since the beginning of time. The following quotes make it clear God uses both holy and evil angels to accomplish His purposes in executing justice and judgment.

God's judgments were awakened against Jericho. It was a stronghold. But the Captain of the Lord's host Himself came from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in an attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground.--3T 264 (1873). {LDE 243.1}

Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.--DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}

The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber. It was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God.--AA 152 (1911). {LDE 243.3}

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.--GC 614 (1911). {LDE 243.4}

In addition to this insight is the biblical testimony recorded in the Revelation. The prophecy plainly says holy angels will pour out the 7 last plagues when God gives them the order to do so. Here's how it is described:

Revelation
15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.


Actually, I was referring to the fire that came out of "the cloud of glory" and killed the 250 sinners. Attributing this to Satan is what sealed the doom of the 14,000 who died during the plague. I assume you do not believe Satan had a hand in the fire that killed them. But where did this literal fire come from? She says it came out of the cloud of glory.

Can you explain away this fire citing some natural law or occurrence? Do you dare?

Your view regarding the earth opening up and killing the sinners is quite fanciful. Where in the Bible or the SOP is such a thing described? I mean, where is it taught that God simply allowed an earthquake to kill the sinners? Besides, it wasn't even an earthquake. Moses prayed for "a new thing" to happen to prove beyond doubt that their death and destruction was of God and not something that could be explained away as natural, as you are attempting to do. Here is how it is described:

Jesus did not demonstrate this aspect of God's character and kingdom while He was here in the flesh. I've made this clear in the past. He only revealed what we could comprehend, what we needed to know in order to repent and be saved.

But I would ask you the same thing. While here in the flesh, when did Jesus withdraw His protection and allow sinners to die?

While here in the flesh, when did Jesus lead an army of angels to destroy the walls of a city which killed sinners in the process?

God's judgments were awakened against Jericho. It was a stronghold. But the Captain of the Lord's host Himself came from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in an attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground.--3T 264 (1873). {LDE 243.1}

While here in the flesh, when did Jesus command holy angels to kill the armies of the enemy?

Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.--DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}

No, MM, I don't know. I certainly wouldn't repeat it if I didn't think it were true. My understanding is that you believe that the wicked will pay for their sins, that is, God will punish them, by literally setting them on fire and continue burning them until they have been sufficiently punished. Is this inaccurate? If so, please correct my misunderstanding.




I quoted the whole thing to have a context, but want to comment specifically on this:



I said:



You said:



So how is what I said not reflecting what you believe?


In regards to 3, Jesus Christ is the full and complete revelation of God. Not the Old Testament. The OT was misunderstood by both men and angels. Nobody understood God correctly until Jesus came. He came, revealed God, and said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." I believe supplanting Jesus' revelation with a misunderstanding of the OT, is undoing what He tried to do. The more we see difference between the OT and Jesus Christ, and the more we "correct" Jesus by our faulty OT ideas, the more we undo.

We should, instead, allow Jesus Christ to correct our OT ideas. When we see the same God in both the OT and revealed in Jesus Christ, then we have the right idea.

This is from 14MR, a little earlier than the other quote I cited:



This clearly states the principle I've been trying to share with you, that we are preserved from "a thousand dangers." The Lord is constantly at work to save us from the attacks of Satan. When His protection is withdrawn, chaos results.

You suggest that these "thousand dangers" are not sufficient, that the Lord needs to add yet more punishments. I see problems with this idea. I'll mention two.

1.It would communicate the wrong idea. If sin/Satan causes our destruction, and God does the same thing, how do we know when destruction happens whether it is God doing it or sin/Satan? If we understand that destruction comes from sin/Satan, then we won't erroneously attribute it to God.



It's too bad to attribute to God that for which Satan deserves the blame. Destruction is a result of sin, and so Satan is its author.



Satan seeks to conceal his own work by blaming God for that which He permits. But this is wrong. Satan is to blame for these things, not God.

This is a general principle. It's not an isolated event. Satan is always seeking to confuse us, to make us think that God is like him, instead of like Jesus, and what better way to do so than to accuse God of doing the destruction that Satan does?

2.Force is not a principle of God's government.







The interpretations you suggest look to be having God resorting to force and compelling power.

In addition to force, I could add violence. It looks to me that your understanding of pretty much everything involved with the Great Controversy is that God accomplishes His will by violence. You see:

a.The cross accomplishes our atonement by violence. (God treating Jesus as if He were sin; lashing His wrath against Him; etc. I don't have your exact words in front of me, but you've written similarly).

b.The last plagues are violent, which you see as God's way of punishing the wicked.

c.In general, you see God relying on violence to uphold His government, throughout history.

d.You see the final judgment as God's overcoming by violence.

Yet Jesus was the most non-violent person one can think of. He used 0 violence, and preached against it. He was non-violent to the point of death, even the death of the cross, even though by a mere snap of His fingers, He could have had legions of angels come to His rescue.

I don't know how Jesus Christ could have more persuasively made the argument that God is not violent, and His government is not established on the principles of violence.

From the SOP:



This does not say:



The statement is not qualified. For you to add "that we can comprehend" is unnecessary is that which we can know is, by definition, that which we can comprehend.

You seem to be suggesting that Jesus did not reveal that God destroys by literal fire those who disobey Him because this is something which couldn't be comprehended. Am I understanding you correctly?

I have repeatedly said it is speculating to assume God will keep them alive supernaturally in the lake of fire. We are told the wicked will suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness in fire God rains down from above and in fire that comes up from below. That's it. We aren't told how He will do it. I realize you think you know how He does it, but you are piecing together unrelated passages to arrive at an unbiblical conclusion.


The way you worded it could be taken to mean since Jesus did not reveal that God has killed sinners with fire it is evidence He never did. Whereas the way I worded it means Jesus didn't reveal this particular truth about God's character and kingdom.


The idea that the OT does not accurately reflect the character of God is strange to me, especially in light of the following insights:


None of these quotes say it is difficult to discern the true character of God in the Old Testament. Neither do they say Jesus had to clear up confusion about God created by the Old Testament. I don't understand why you believe otherwise. Just because a bunch of Pharisees and Sadducees developed distorted views about God's character it does not mean the Old Testament is to blame. Jesus pleaded with the people to study the Old Testament. He didn't warn them to be careful not to be deceived by the perverted views it contains.

How is what I'm saying (above) different from what you are saying? Or, more to the point, in what way is what I said (above in this post) incorrectly presenting your viewpoint? Or is it?



That it could be taken that way doesn't mean it need be taken that way. If I'm writing something I say we both agree with, I have to write it in a way that can be taken in such a way that we both agree to it, right?



which would imply something I don't agree with (that this aspect of God's character exists). Since I wanted to express something we both agree with, I wrote it in a way that we could both agree to the statement.

Jesus never revealed, during in His life with us in the flesh, that God kills people with literal fire.

We both agree this is true.



The problem is our faulty understanding of the OT. We read it amiss. Christ understood it, and correctly interpreted it through His life and teachings.

Christ said that He did the things He saw His Father doing. Where? In Scripture. What did He see His Father doing? Just what He (Jesus Christ) did, which was acts of mercy and kindness.



The confusion was created by Satan, not the Old Testament. It was cleared up by Christ.





I'll give you an example of my point.



The way the disciples that God dealt with rejection, on the basis of their faulty understanding of the Old Testament, was by sending fire from heaven to destroy them. But they didn't realize this is Satan's way, not God's. So Jesus revealed the truth to them, that God does not destroy mens' lives, but saves them.

Jesus revealed the way that God deals with rejection. He calmly departed to another village.