Regarding post #98860







These sure look similar to me. Since the last quote does not specifically use the word "plague," we'll set it aside for now. From the first quote we see that:

1.The four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues.
2.The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed.
3.Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent.
4.The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.
5.Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.
6.Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.
7.As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose.
8.The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

It's interesting that she references the destruction of Jerusalem, because we see the same principles at work.



Just replace "the Jews" with "the finally impenitent." Just as there are those who attribute the destruction of Jerusalem to God, when in reality Satan was responsible, so there are those who do the same thing for the plagues. But the principle is the same in both events, which is that God protects the wicked, and when He removes that protection chaos ensues.

TE: I guess I'll also mention that I do not believe that Moses was working by the power of Satan in the judgments against the rebels. This is the earthquake one, right? I can think of two explanations in harmony with what Jesus Christ revealed.

1.God knew the earthquake would happen, and did nothing to prevent it.

2.God had been preventing an earthquake from happening, but ceased holding it back.

Regarding how you view things, what actions that Christ took during His life would correspond to your ideas?

And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men, then the Lord hath not sent me. But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit, then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord." As Moses ceased speaking, the earth opened and swallowed them up, and their tents, and all that pertained unto them. They went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the congregation. {4aSG 31.2}

As the children of Israel heard the cry of the perishing ones, they fled at a great distance from them. They knew that they were in a measure guilty, for they had received the accusations against Moses and Aaron, and they were afraid that they should also perish with them. The judgment of God was not yet finished. A fire came from the cloud of glory and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. They were princes; that is, men generally of good judgment, and of influence in the congregation, men of renown. They were highly esteemed, and their judgment had often been sought in difficult matters. But they were affected by a wrong influence, and became envious, jealous and rebellious. They perished not with Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, because they were not the first in rebellion. They were to see their end first, and have an opportunity of repenting of their crime. But they were not reconciled to the destruction of those wicked men, and the wrath of God came upon them, and destroyed them also. {4aSG 32.1}

TE: Don't you believe God sets the wicked on fire? You do believe they are set on fire, right? If it's not God who does this, who is it? Don't you believe God rains fire on them from heaven, and they burst into flames? If so, this is certainly equivalent to saying that God sets them on fire. If not, what do you believe?

MM:Again, we are told the wicked will suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness in fire God rains down from above and in fire that comes up from below. That's it.

TE: So you are, indeed, affirming that God sets them on fire, which is what I said.

MM: We aren't told how He will do it. We aren't told how they suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness.

I agree that it is difficult to imagine how humans and angels can be in a lake of fire together and not burn up at the same time. But this doesn't give us the right to assume the fire isn't literal. The inspired descriptions of the lake of fire are too clear to ignore, to spiritualize away, or to twist to mean something other than what they plainly say.

TE: So you agree the fire is literal. I don't see what there is to disagree about in regards to my characterization of your view. God sets the wicked on fire and keeps them on fire until He's through punishing them, at which point they die. That's how you see things, isn't it?

TE: I wrote, "Jesus never revealed, during in His life with us in the flesh, that God kills people with literal fire." Do you disagree with this? (just this one sentence; suppose it was someone else who wrote it besides me).

MM: I cannot divorce this statement from the context of this discussion. So, no, I do not agree with it. If you worded it the way I suggested earlier I would have no problem with it. Jesus did not demonstrate, while here in the flesh, the fact God has destroyed sinners with literal fire.

TE: "Has" isn't good. "Will" would be better. E.g. "Jesus did not demonstrate, while here in the flesh, the fact God will destroy sinners with literal fire." You agree with that, right?

MM: All right, let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that Sister White expected us to interpret what she wrote above to mean Jesus commanded the angels to simply stop preventing things from happening that naturally cause people to suffer and die. Did Jesus demonstrate this aspect of God's character while sojourning here in the flesh? If not, why not?

TE: Yes. We've discussed this, and I cited a number of examples.

Let's start with just one point for now. When God is mistreated, how does He respond? Does He smite His enemies? Or does He simply withdraw?

There are a number of things to consider in relation to God's character. For example:

1.How are the wicked destroyed?
2.How does Christ's death save us?
3.What causes the last seven plagues?
4.How should we understand the episodes in Scripture where God is said to have done this or that destructive thing?
5.How should we understand the episodes in Scripture where God is said to have commanded people to do this and that (violent things)?

Without question, the most difficult of these to understand are the last two. So I'm proposing we stick to the first three. I see no possibility that we will agree on points 4 or 5 if we disagree regarding the first 3.

One further comment is that if one is comfortable with idea of God's doing that which is attributed to Him, just as things appear to be on the surface, then one won't see any reason to interpret things in any other way. The question only comes up when one considers what Christ lived and taught and sees a disconnect between that and the common understanding of what happened in the OT. If one sees no disconnect, that sort of ends the conversation.

PS - Whatever you believe about the relationship between God withdrawing His protection and the resulting death and destruction, you need to be able, because of how you interpret the SOP, to cite examples in the life of Christ where He demonstrated this aspect of God's kingdom and character. In other words, name a time when Jesus, while here, withdrew His protection and sinners died as a result.

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." (GC 541)

But today mercy pleads with the sinner. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11. The voice that speaks to the impenitent today is the voice of Him who in heart anguish exclaimed as He beheld the city of His love: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her own brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Luke 13:34, 35, R.V. In Jerusalem, Jesus beheld a symbol of the world that had rejected and despised His grace. He was weeping, O stubborn heart, for you! Even when Jesus' tears were shed upon the mount, Jerusalem might yet have repented, and escaped her doom. For a little space the Gift of heaven still waited her acceptance. So, O heart, to you Christ is still speaking in accents of love: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me." "Now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." Revelation 3:20; 2 Corinthians 6:2. (MB 151)

Why do you omit the phrase "needs to know"?

There are countless things to know about God, but what are the things about His character that are essential for us to know? And, why is it critical for us to know them about God?

Would it prevent us from experiencing rebirth and salvation if we were unable to learn and comprehend the things about God's character that are important for us to know? Why do we have the need to know? Does our salvation depend on us knowing and comprehending them?

What are some of the aspects of God's character that are *not* essential to our salvation to know and comprehend? What are some of the aspects of His character that God did not see fit to reveal to us, aspects that He expects us to humbly accept we are simply unable at this time to comprehend?

Whatever aspects of His character God saw fit not to reveal or explain to us at this time are the same aspects we should expect not to see demonstrated in the life of Christ while He was here in the flesh. God expects us to rest satisfied with not knowing or being able to comprehend those aspects of His character He has not seen fit to reveal to us at this time.

TE: These sure look similar to me. Since the last quote does not specifically use the word "plague," we'll set it aside for now.

MM: The last quote doesn't mention the 7LPs for the simple reason she wasn't talking about them. Instead, she was talking about the destruction God permits Satan to cause now, before the close of probation.

TE: Just as there are those who attribute the destruction of Jerusalem to God, when in reality Satan was responsible, so there are those who do the same thing for the plagues.

MM: God permitted Satan to wreak havoc upon Jerusalem, but He didn't give the Devil free reign to rule as he saw fit. The judgments of God against Jerusalem in 70 AD were mingled with mercy. But not so when God pulls the plug the day probation ends for mankind. The 7LPs are not mixed with mercy.

Please notice in the quote you posted above that Satan is allowed to manipulate the "fierce winds of human passion" while holy angels are pouring out the 7LPs. Satan is not permitted to pour out the 7LPs. God has entrusted the work of pouring out the 7LPS to holy angels. That's what it says in the Revelation and in the SOP. Please see the quotes I posted above. Satan will be allowed to control "the elements of strife", the "fierce winds of human passion", but holy angels are commanded to pour out the 7LPs.

Please post a quote where I say, "God sets them on fire and keeps them burning supernaturally until they have suffered in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness." I have been arguing against this view.

Please stop saying otherwise. I am willing to concede it is a possibility, but the inspired record doesn't say so.

It simply says God rains fire down from above and raises fire up from below. Within this environment the wicked suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness. We are not told how it is accomplished, how they are able to suffer different intensities, and how they are able to die at different times. But not knowing does not give us the right to assume the fire is symbolic of something other than literal fire.

PS - Whatever you believe about the relationship between God withdrawing His protection and the resulting death and destruction, you need to be able, because of how you interpret the SOP, to cite examples in the life of Christ where He demonstrated this aspect of God's kingdom and character. In other words, name a time when Jesus, while here, withdrew His protection and sinners died as a result.

TE: In questions of this sort, I like to look for principles. The principle which Christ revealed is that God does not act in violence, that force is not a principle of His kingdom. Christ revealed that what God did was on the basis of love, mercy and justice.


This is speaking of the judgment. The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, *taught and exemplified by our Savior* are no new characteristics of God which Jesus did not reveal.

Jesus went about doing good. That's how God is. Why then is there suffering and death, if God only does good? Because there is an enemy who kills and destroys.

I've mentioned several examples of this principle in the past, but I still the think the best one is the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus spoke of this event on quite a number of occasions through parables, and directly. For example:


Behold the principle Jesus revealed.

God's love has been expressed in His justice no less than in His mercy. Justice is the foundation of His throne, and the fruit of His love. It had been Satan's purpose to divorce mercy from truth and justice. He sought to prove that the righteousness of God's law is an enemy to peace. But Christ shows that in God's plan they are indissolubly joined together; the one cannot exist without the other. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." Ps. 85:10. {DA 762.3}

By His life and His death, Christ proved that God's justice did not destroy His mercy, but that sin could be forgiven, and that the law is righteous, and can be perfectly obeyed. Satan's charges were refuted. God had given man unmistakable evidence of His love. {DA 762.4}

From the highest peaks men looked abroad upon a shoreless ocean. The solemn warnings of God's servant no longer seemed a subject for ridicule and scorning. How those doomed sinners longed for the opportunities which they had slighted! How they pleaded for one hour's probation, one more privilege of mercy, one call from the lips of Noah! But the sweet voice of mercy was no more to be heard by them. Love, no less than justice, demanded that God's judgments should put a check on sin. The avenging waters swept over the last retreat, and the despisers of God perished in the black depths. {PP 100.3}

"By the word of God . . . the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:5-7. Another storm is coming. The earth will again be swept by the desolating wrath of God, and sin and sinners will be destroyed. {PP 101.1}

Love no less than justice demanded that for this sin judgment should be inflicted. God is the guardian as well as the sovereign of His people. He cuts off those who are determined upon rebellion, that they may not lead others to ruin. In sparing the life of Cain, God had demonstrated to the universe what would be the result of permitting sin to go unpunished. The influence exerted upon his descendants by his life and teaching led to the state of corruption that demanded the destruction of the whole world by a flood. The history of the antediluvians testifies that long life is not a blessing to the sinner; God's great forbearance did not repress their wickedness. The longer men lived, the more corrupt they became. {PP 325.2}

So with the apostasy at Sinai. Unless punishment had been speedily visited upon transgression, the same results would again have been seen. The earth would have become as corrupt as in the days of Noah. Had these transgressors been spared, evils would have followed, greater than resulted from sparing the life of Cain. It was the mercy of God that thousands should suffer, to prevent the necessity of visiting judgments upon millions. In order to save the many, He must punish the few. Furthermore, as the people had cast off their allegiance to God, they had forfeited the divine protection, and, deprived of their defense, the whole nation was exposed to the power of their enemies. Had not the evil been promptly put away, they would soon have fallen a prey to their numerous and powerful foes. It was necessary for the good of Israel, and also as a lesson to all succeeding generations, that crime should be promptly punished. And it was no less a mercy to the sinners themselves that they should be cut short in their evil course. Had their life been spared, the same spirit that led them to rebel against God would have been manifested in hatred and strife among themselves, and they would eventually have destroyed one another. It was in love to the world, in love to Israel, and even to the transgressors, that crime was punished with swift and terrible severity. {PP 325.3}

What are some of the aspects of God's character that are *not* essential to our salvation to know and comprehend? What are some of the aspects of His character that God did not see fit to reveal to us, aspects that He expects us to humbly accept we are simply unable at this time to comprehend?

Whatever aspects of His character God saw fit not to reveal or explain to us at this time are the same aspects we should expect not to see demonstrated in the life of Christ while He was here in the flesh. God expects us to rest satisfied with not knowing or being able to comprehend those aspects of His character He has not seen fit to reveal to us at this time.

TE: There are no aspects of His character He did not reveal. God's character was fully revealed in Christ. That's what the Scriptures tell us, and the SOP as well.

8T 285, 26
Man cannot by searching find out God. Let none seek with presumptuous hand to lift the veil that conceals His glory. "Unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" Romans 11:33. It is a proof of His mercy that there is the hiding of His power; for to lift the veil that conceals the divine presence is death. No mortal mind can penetrate the secrecy in which the Mighty One dwells and works. Only that which He sees fit to reveal can we comprehend of Him. Reason must acknowledge an authority superior to itself. Heart and intellect must bow to the great I AM. {8T 285.2}

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. {8T 286.2}