Tom, please address #99052 and #99054 (above). Thank you.

[quote=Tom Ewall]
Yes, God destroyed Jerusalem by allowing evil angels to use the Roman army. God uses His enemies as instruments to punish sinners. History proves it. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored." {LDE 242.3}


Please explain how sinners caused the Flood to happen. Did they detonate a bomb, or something, that triggered the forces of nature to unleash her fury upon them? "Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence." (PP 99)

So how did God do this? Did He tell the Romans what to do?



They did the same thing the Jews did in causing Jerusalem to be destroyed.

TE: So how did God do this? Did He tell the Romans what to do?

MM: God destroyed Jerusalem by allowing evil angels to use the Roman army. God uses His enemies as instruments to punish sinners. History proves it. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored." {LDE 242.3}

TE: They did the same thing the Jews did in causing Jerusalem to be destroyed.

MM: God destroyed Jerusalem by allowing evil angels to use the Roman army.

Do you agree with the statements?

1.God rains fire upon the wicked, literal fire.
2.The wicked catch on fire, their flesh in flames.

You didn't address 1. It looked to me like you agreed with 2.

The wrath of God in Scripture is God's giving His creatures over the to results of the choice they have made. When the angels pour out the last plagues, this is what is happening.

The releasing of the winds of strife is what causes the last plagues. The angels are not releasing themselves to cause havoc, but allowing Satan and his angels to do so. This is because the Spirit of God has been stubbornly resisted and at last withdraws His protection.



This is a nice description of the process. It boggles my mind that you don't see this as descriptive of the seven last plagues. This seems obvious to me, yet you disagree, so that's probably all there is to say about that.

Under your scenario, God and Satan are both causing destruction against the wicked. But God is not like Satan. It should be possible for us to tell the difference. They act differently.

For example, God is not violent, and God does not act violently. God does not use force or violence to get His way.

As the SOP puts it "force is not a principle of God's government." She also states, "force is the last resort of every false religion," but it appears to me you believe this applies to true religion as well.

Where did Jesus represent the ideas regarding God you are sharing? In particular, how can you look at the life and teachings of Jesus Christ and suppose that He would agree with the idea that God punishes people by causing their flesh to catch on flames by casting literal fire upon them, not allowing them to die, but making them continue to suffer for days or hours?

How could you not expect someone hearing this to think of God in, I'll put it charitably, a negative way? How could you expect one who believed this to not think that God's message to us is "Do what I say, or watch out! I'll do terrible things to you! I'll make you suffer unbelievable pain, worse than you can imagine, and then kill you!"

It pains me to write these things.

How could anyone with thoughts such as these not have it ever present in the back of their minds what awful things God will do if one is not obedient? If one thinks this way, how can one every be motivated by disinterested love? How can one hear the soft whisperings of love of the Holy Spirit when the shouts of fire and destruction are present?

Tom, do you agree with the following insight?

"God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored." {LDE 242.3}

It's been awhile, so I'll repost her description:


This is what I believe - no more, no less. It agrees with the first statement you posted above, but it does not spell out the details like your second statement.

Tom, I agree with you that God is loving and long suffering. But when men or nations fill up their cup of iniquity God is not too kind or lenient to do what is right. Listen to how it is described in the Bible:

Deuteronomy
28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe [and] to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
28:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

Deuteronomy
28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, [even] great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
28:63 And it shall come to pass, [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

"So the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you." This doesn't sound like God, does it? Neither does it sound like holy angels in the following passage:

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

Tom, you have been advocating that it is evil angels, not holy angels, who will pour out the 7LPs. In the Bible the holy angels attribute the out pouring of the plagues to God. Would you have me believe the evil angels will do something that will cause the holy angels to praise God?

This is what I've been saying, isn't it? How God does this is explained in detail in the first chapter of "The Great Controversy."



I just quoted what you said. *You* said that their flesh catches on flames.

Do you disagree with what you said previously? Or do you agree that their flesh catches on flames? Assuming you agree with what you said previously, then you believe:

1.God rains fire upon the wicked.
2.Flames engulf their flesh.



I understand "to do what is right" to mean to allow the wicked the choice of their free will, as described in GC 35-37.

If we wish to know what God is like, we have merely to consider His Son. "When You've seen Me, you've seen the Father."