Thank you, Tom, but what I'm asking is based on the idea that "John allows for the possibility of one sinning by saying that "if anyone sin, we have an advocated with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

Did John expect us to interpret 1 John 3:6,9 in light of what he wrote in 1 John 2:1,2? In other words, does "doth not and cannot commit sin" include the possibility of sinning while actively "abiding in Jesus"?

John was writing a letter. He certainly intended what he had written earlier in the letter would be kept in mind.



Your idea was originally that no one can commit any known sin while abiding in Jesus. But you saw that can't be, and reworked the idea to be that no one can commit a known sin, except the one sin of neglecting to abide in Jesus, while abiding in Jesus. I don't see John saying this.

1 John 3:9 says that no one born of God sins. But people born of God commit sins. We see this all the time. So he can't be meaning that a person born of God never commits any sin. That should be clear.

I think John's thought is in harmony with the following:

TE: 1 John 3:9 says that no one born of God sins. But people born of God commit sins. We see this all the time. So he can't be meaning that a person born of God never commits any sin. That should be clear.

MM: What? Are you citing sinning as proof sinning cannot be avoided? In other words, are you saying the fact born again believers sin occasionally is proof John did not mean what he plainly said? Since when do we cite sinning as proof sinning cannot be avoided?

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TE: Your idea was originally that no one can commit any known sin while abiding in Jesus. But you saw that can't be, and reworked the idea to be that no one can commit a known sin, except the one sin of neglecting to abide in Jesus, while abiding in Jesus.

MM: Even in heaven, the only sin we will be able to commit initially is the sin of neglecting to abide in Jesus. Because we will be endowed with free moral agency, we will always possess the ability to sin by neglecting to abide in Jesus. Of course we will never exercise our right to sin.

Let's look at it from another perspective. The Bible says, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

"There is none that seeketh after God." Thus, if we use your logic, it should be impossible for God to save us. Obviously, these types of passages imply certain conditions. That is, if sinners refuse to respond to the ever pleading presence of the Holy Spirit they will fail of salvation. The inherent, unstated condition in passages like these is - If you continually reject the Holy Spirit's pleas to accept Jesus you will be unable to seek or desire a relationship with Him.

Now, what about 1 John 3:6,9? Is there an inherent, unstated condition? If so, what is it? Might the promise mean exactly what it says if the condition is met? Well, the condition is actually plainly stated. Here it is: "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." The condition is - If we are abiding in Jesus we will not sin.

Of course, promises like these are not implying we are born again incapable of sinning. In fact, we are not free to sin until we are free from sin. We are free from sin the instant we are born again and die to sin. "He that is dead is freed from sin." It was even possible for Jesus to sin. Nevertheless, so long as we continually choose to consciously abide in Jesus we will not exercise our right to sin. However, the condition is - If we abide in Jesus. If we neglect to abide in Jesus we are guilty of committing a sin of omission.

The only thing we can do to be saved is not neglect to abide in Jesus; and the only thing we can do to be lost is neglect to abide in Jesus. These are the eternal conditions of life and death.

Where did I say anything about "sinning cannot be avoided"? Let's take a look at one of your questions here:



Let's look at what John "plainly said."



Here John "plainly states" that one who is born of God "cannot sin." Yet you state that a born again person can sin! In this very post you write:



So John "plainly states" that one born of God "cannot sin," yet you say he is not "implying" what he plainly states!

So why don't you believe what John "plainly states"?

In case the point of my question is not clear, the point is that you are not being consistent with your methodology. You are making up an elaborate theory based on a couple of verses John wrote, which are clearly not what he intended to say. Even you see this by writing that John is not "implying" what the plainly states, that one who is born of God "cannot sin."

According to the SOP, the most detailed explanation of how being saved works that was given by Jesus Christ was given to Nicodemus. She writes:



The pitfall I see in your definition of being saved by not neglecting to abide in Jesus is that it's too easy to make this into a works trip. How does one abide in Jesus? Probably by such things as prayer, Bible study, and so forth. This would make salvation a matter of works. But salvation is by faith, not by works.



Let's establish this point in our minds! Salvation is through faith. Following the suggestion of giving due weight to Jesus' Christ's description of being saved will keep us away from the error of making salvation a matter of works. To be saved one need but respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit, who reveals the love of God shining from the cross. To be lost, one need but resist this wooing.

TE: To be saved one need but respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit, who reveals the love of God shining from the cross. To be lost, one need but resist this wooing.

MM: In so saying are you not contradicting yourself? Isn't responding to the wooing of the Holy Spirit a form of works? Are we not required to respond to be saved? "While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works." (1SM 377)

"While we are to be in harmony with God’s law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law." (FW 95)

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” (Ephesians 2:8–10)

We are not saved because “of” our good works. Instead we are saved “unto” good works. In other words, we are saved not because we experience righteousness; rather, we are able to experience righteousness because we are saved. Jesus is the root of our salvation, and the fruit of our salvation is “righteousness and true holiness.” (Ephesians 4:24) True, we cannot work our way to heaven, but we can and must allow heaven to work its way in us!

Are you saying the fact born again believers sin occasionally is proof John did not mean what he plainly said in 1 John 3:6,9?


Actually, Tom, the ability to sin and the ability not to sin are two different realities, right? Both were true of Jesus. Both are true of unfallen beings. Both are true, according to 1 John 3:6 and 9, of born again believers who are actively abiding in Jesus. So, what I posted above is in complete harmony with what John wrote in 1 John 3:6,9.

True, salvation is a free gift. But Jesus doesn't force it on us. We must accept it. But there are conditions to receiving the free gift, namely, we must respond to the wooing, winning influence of the Holy Spirit, which motivates us to confess and crucify our cultivated old man habits of sin. We must repent and be baptized to get saved.

But getting saved is only part of it; we must also stay saved. And there are conditions to staying saved. We must continually choose to consciously abide in Jesus. As we do this we are empowered to use our sanctified faculties of mind and body, our higher and lower powers, to imitate the example of Jesus in resisting temptation and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

Hmm. I though I responded to this. Maybe I didn't post it.

Ok, well, practice makes perfect.

No, responding to the Holy Spirit is not a form of works. When certain Jews went to Jesus and asked Him, "What must we do to work the works of God?" He responded, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." Believing in Jesus Christ is the work of God.



Not in an arbitrary sense. We are required in the sense that if there is only one road that goes into town, you are required to take that road to get there.



This is pretty eloquent, MM. It sounds like you're pretty much saying the same thing I am, that we're not saved by works, but by faith, but saving faith works. The only thing I would question here is you say, "We are to experience righteousness because we are saved." This makes it sound like being saved and experiencing righteousness may be two different things. I would say that being saved and experiencing righteousness are one and the same thing.



No, I'm saying you're not consistent in your interpretation of what John "plainly states." You say that John is not implying that one who is born of God is incapable of sinning, in spite of the fact that John "plainly states" that one born of God "cannot sin."



You said before that a person who is abiding in Jesus cannot sin. I disagree with this. Now you are saying that it is possible for a person abiding in Jesus to sin. I agree with this.



Agreed, but not as an arbitrary requirement, but as in this is the only road that goes into town.



The repent part is correct. Water baptism is simply a public acknowledgment. It's analogous to the circumcision of Abraham, for whom circumcision was a sign of the righteousness which he had obtained by faith. It's similar for baptism.



It's the same. We "get saved" and stay saved by way of Christ. Salvation is from "faith to faith," as Paul puts it. We begin by faith, and continue by faith.



Right. Faith is the condition. The same as for becoming saved. Here's what Paul has to say:





If this means "we must continually exercise faith," then this is true. If it means something other than this, then it's false. As Paul explains, otherwise grace is no more grace.

Yes, believing and behaving are blended in those who are being saved. Faith and works are inseparable. Nevertheless, we are not saved based on our works.


The existence of a road that leads to town and walking on that road to arrive in town are two different realities, right? If we hope to be in town we must choose to walk there. We cannot arrive in town by sitting down on the road. Jesus isn’t going to tote us to town on His back. He will walk with us to arrive in town, but He won’t carry us there. So, what do these two different realities symbolize – 1) the road that leads to town, and 2) walking on the road to arrive in town?


No, I’m not saying it is possible to sin while abiding in Jesus. I agree with 1 John 3:6,9. Neglecting to abide in Jesus is a sin of omission, which is a sin we commit while not abiding in Jesus. We sin by default if we neglect to abide in Jesus. We do not have to choose to sin, we need only to neglect to abide in Jesus.


Grace is unmerited favor. But what is the favor? It is twofold – 1) Pardon for sin, and 2) Power to obey. “Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” We must choose to abide in Jesus to have power from on High to obey the law, to imitate the example of Jesus in growing in grace, in maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. Yes, by faith we believe God will empower us to be like Jesus if we continually choose to consciously abide in Jesus.

My point regarding the road that leads to town is that God is not making an arbitrary requirement that one must do certain things in order to be saved. God is pointing to the road of life, the "via dolorosa" one might say, the way of Christ. Jesus Christ is "the way." The way to walk the road is by faith in Christ. Faith in Christ is necessary, being the only alternative to the road of serving self, which is death.

Regarding 1 John 3, you previously corrected yourself. You said something like "You're right. I stand corrected." You had previously said that one abiding in Jesus cannot commit a known sin, but you reversed yourself in recognizing that neglecting to abide in Jesus is a known sin. So that's good. I agree.

However, John did not only say that one abiding in Jesus does not sin, he also said one who is born of God does not sin, in fact, cannot sin. But you say that John was not implying that one is not capable of sinning, even though John "plainly states" that one who is born of God "cannot sin."

Your methodology isn't working. It leads to contradictions. You complain that I do not accept what John "plainly states," but then you declare that John was not teaching that a born again person is capable of sinning. Your own question returns to you: "Do you not believe what John plainly states?"

The whole problem is that you are trying to apply to lonely verses to a subject that these verses are not addressing. If you wish to know the conditions of being saved, please consider Jesus' words to Nicodemus. Paul also goes to great lengths to explain how one is saved. We have whole chunks of Romans, several chapters, and the entire book of Galatians dedicated to this theme.



Again, if "continually choose to consciously abide in Jesus" means "continually exercise faith in Jesus" then I agree. If it means something else, then we have the problem Paul points out in Romans 11.