Tom, the quote you posted is not talking about the 7 last plagues. You cannot cite this reference and assume it explains all the different ways God has executed justice and judgment since the beginning of time. The following quotes make it clear God uses both holy and evil angels to accomplish His purposes in executing justice and judgment.

God's judgments were awakened against Jericho. It was a stronghold. But the Captain of the Lord's host Himself came from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in an attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground.--3T 264 (1873). {LDE 243.1}

Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.--DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}

The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber. It was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God.--AA 152 (1911). {LDE 243.3}

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.--GC 614 (1911). {LDE 243.4}

In addition to this insight is the biblical testimony recorded in the Revelation. The prophecy plainly says holy angels will pour out the 7 last plagues when God gives them the order to do so. Here's how it is described:

Revelation
15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

TE: Just as there are those who attribute the destruction of Jerusalem to God, when in reality Satan was responsible, so there are those who do the same thing for the plagues.

MM: God permitted Satan to wreak havoc upon Jerusalem, but He didn't give the Devil free reign to rule as he saw fit. The judgments of God against Jerusalem in 70 AD were mingled with mercy. But not so when God pulls the plug the day probation ends for mankind. The 7LPs are not mixed with mercy.

Please notice in the quote you posted above that Satan is allowed to manipulate the "fierce winds of human passion" while holy angels are pouring out the 7LPs. Satan is not permitted to pour out the 7LPs. God has entrusted the work of pouring out the 7LPS to holy angels. That's what it says in the Revelation and in the SOP. Please see the quotes I posted above. Satan will be allowed to control "the elements of strife", the "fierce winds of human passion", but holy angels are commanded to pour out the 7LPs.

TE: I'm not following you. What quote are you talking about that you posted? From the quote I posted, we see the following principles:

1.The four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues.
2.The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed.
3.Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent.
4.The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.
5.Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.
6.Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.
7.As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose.
8.The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

This is talking about the last plagues. This is how they work.

TE: I wrote, "Jesus never revealed, during in His life with us in the flesh, that God kills people with literal fire." Do you disagree with this? (just this one sentence; suppose it was someone else who wrote it besides me).

MM: I cannot divorce this statement from the context of this discussion. So, no, I do not agree with it. If you worded it the way I suggested earlier I would have no problem with it. Jesus did not demonstrate, while here in the flesh, the fact God has destroyed sinners with literal fire.

TE: "Has" isn't good. "Will" would be better. E.g. "Jesus did not demonstrate, while here in the flesh, the fact God will destroy sinners with literal fire." You agree with that, right?

MM: All right, let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that Sister White expected us to interpret what she wrote above to mean Jesus commanded the angels to simply stop preventing things from happening that naturally cause people to suffer and die. Did Jesus demonstrate this aspect of God's character while sojourning here in the flesh? If not, why not?

TE: Yes. We've discussed this, and I cited a number of examples.

Let's start with just one point for now. When God is mistreated, how does He respond? Does He smite His enemies? Or does He simply withdraw?

There are a number of things to consider in relation to God's character. For example:

1.How are the wicked destroyed?
2.How does Christ's death save us?
3.What causes the last seven plagues?
4.How should we understand the episodes in Scripture where God is said to have done this or that destructive thing?
5.How should we understand the episodes in Scripture where God is said to have commanded people to do this and that (violent things)?

Without question, the most difficult of these to understand are the last two. So I'm proposing we stick to the first three. I see no possibility that we will agree on points 4 or 5 if we disagree regarding the first 3.

One further comment is that if one is comfortable with idea of God's doing that which is attributed to Him, just as things appear to be on the surface, then one won't see any reason to interpret things in any other way. The question only comes up when one considers what Christ lived and taught and sees a disconnect between that and the common understanding of what happened in the OT. If one sees no disconnect, that sort of ends the conversation.

Please post a quote where I say, "God sets them on fire and keeps them burning supernaturally until they have suffered in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness." I have been arguing against this view.

TE: You've been arguing against this view? I don't think so.

MM: Please stop saying otherwise. I am willing to concede it is a possibility, but the inspired record doesn't say so.

TE: There you have it. If you concede it's a possibility, you're not arguing against the view. To argue against the view would mean that it's not a possibility. *I've* been arguing against this view. I'm still not getting what you disagree with. Are you saying perhaps the fire is literal, and perhaps it's not?

MM: It simply says God rains fire down from above and raises fire up from below. Within this environment the wicked suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness. We are not told how it is accomplished, how they are able to suffer different intensities, and how they are able to die at different times. But not knowing does not give us the right to assume the fire is symbolic of something other than literal fire.

TE: You agree the fire might not be literal?

I am arguing against the idea that the Bible and the SOP clearly teach that God will set sinners on fire and continue burning them until they die....

Both sources of fire are literal.

I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. (EW 36)

[quote]When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.(GC)

We also agree there are times when God withdraws His protection and gives evil angels permission to manipulate the fierce winds of human passion. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is a perfect example. I do not attribute it to God.

But where we disagree is whether or not God has used the forces of nature Himself to cause destruction. The Flood is an example. You believe God simply stopped holding back the forces of nature which would have otherwise caused destruction. You attribute it to sin. I believe God used them as arsenals of destruction. Thus, I attribute it to God. So does Sister White in the following quote, and for the same reasons I do.

How is this not a contradiction? Let's try this step by step.

1.God rains fire upon the wicked, literal fire.
2.The wicked catch on fire, their flesh in flames (you spoke in an earlier post about their flesh being in flames).

I'll stop here. Do you agree with these statements?

Inspiration frequently attributes to God that which He permits. For example, Scripture depicts the destruction of Jerusalem to God alone. What is your basis for saying that it was not God who destroyed Jerusalem? (setting aside the SOP)

TE: What is your basis for saying that it was not God who destroyed Jerusalem?

MM: The fact the Romans did it.

However, who do you say caused the Flood?