Tom, your analogy describes a sin of ignorance. Of course God forgives sins of ignorance. If fact, He does not count us guilty of them because the blood of Jesus serves as an atonement. But the moment we discover our fault, God expects us to repent in order for Him to continue covering it with the blood of Jesus.

I agree with you in that we must repent first in order for God to forgive a know sin. God does not cover unconfessed, unforgiven known sins with the blood of Jesus. Nor does God count us born again before we confess and crucify every single one of our known and cultivated sinful traits and habits. They must first be revealed in light of the cross and confessed and crucified before genuine rebirth can take place. Do you agree?

The analogy was dealing with one who comes to Christ. In the analogy, I have misunderstood your intentions, and because of this, been upset at you. But you were innocent. When my eyes were opened, the path was cleared for reconciliation.

Similarly, the cross reveals the truth about God. We see that He is innocent of the evil thoughts we had attributed to Him, and the path is cleared for reconciliation. Not of God towards us, because there was never a need on God's side, since God has no self that can be offended -- He is simply love -- but we need to be reconciled to Him. But we will never choose to be reconciled to God as long as we hate Him and misunderstand Him.



I was talking about this, although, even here, "where there is no light, there is no sin."



The driving factor is not the expectations of God, but the reality of our need. *We* need to recognize the truth, or *we* will never choose to be reconciled to God.



This depends upon what sense you are speaking of. In one sense, God has forgiven everyone of there sins, in accordance with Jesus' prayer ("Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.). Love keeps no record of wrong (1 Cor. 13). However, although God has no personal need, no self that needs to be satisfied, no demands on His part that must be met in order for Him to forgive, *we* require repentance in order for God to be able to forgive us in the sense that we experience His forgiveness.

I realize this concept is a bit difficult to communicate. Let's go back to the previous example to make this clear. Let's say I've misunderstood you, and am upset at you, and you're aware of this. Let's say you've been praying for me, that God would open my eyes to see the truth, and recognize that you had been working for good and not for evil. This demonstrates an attitude of forgiveness on your part. Clearly, you've already forgiven me, or you wouldn't be praying for me. So in one sense, you've already forgiven me.

However, I cannot experience your forgiveness without repentance. As long as I'm angry at you, reconciliation is impossible.

The purpose of the blood is to get us to the point of reconciliation. It's a one-way operation. It's to "bring us to God," as Peter puts it. It reveals the truth, that God had been working for good, and not for evil.

It clears the path for reconciliation.



We're talking apples and oranges here. In order for us to be healed, we need to know the truth. As long as we are angry at God, and feel that He is being unjust, we cannot be forgiven. This problem I'm speaking of is not a legal one. Even if there was a legal problem involved, it's importance would be minuscule in comparison with the issues I'm discussing here.

The Bible is full of lists of "dos and don'ts". Judgment is all about lists of right and wrong. God is clearly concerned about it; otherwise, He wouldn't make them or keep them. The reason it keeps coming up as we study together is because you seem to believe the list's do not matter, that all that matters is we learn to love and appreciate the character of God.

But this sounds more like a cop out than an answer to the questions I've been asking. List's aren't important to you until it becomes clear you believe there are certain sinful traits and habits the Holy Spirit waits to reveal until after people experience rebirth. You explain that these unrevealed, uncrucified traits and habits are not the types of sinning that cause people around them to despise the gospel or to conclude they are no better off than the common worldling.

You also explain that this process of gradually becoming aware of and crucifying non-offending, uncrucified sinful traits and habits is the process of sanctification. Obviously you have certain types of sinful traits and habits in mind, but you are usually hesitant to list them because you feel doing so isn't important. And when you do name one, it tuns out not to fit. it doesn't fall into the category you've identified as sinful traits and habits the Holy Spirit can wait to reveal to them until some later date. Then you get disgusted and tell me it just doesn't matter. But it does matter, Tom. It matters to me. Your idea that the Holy Spirit does not open my eyes to certain of my sinful ways until He thinks I'm ready to deal with it is disturbing, to say the least.


Tom, you're kidding me, right? What you just described is nothing less than the theory of evolution or devolution. There is no way you can support this view of sanctification from the Bible or the SOP. But if you think can support it, then please post the necessary quotes from the Bible or the SOP. Please, do not quote Jones or Waggoner if that’s where you got this idea from. I need to see it in the Bible or SOP first. Thank you.

By the way, is swearing and cursing one of those sinful traits and habits the Holy Spirit can wait to reveal to newborn babes until they are ready to deal with it? If not, then where does it say born again believers can swear while they are abiding in Jesus, while they are walking in the Spirit and in the mind of the new man?

Also, what do you mean by - "Serving a master and having a habit are two different things." Are you suggesting that serving Jesus and gradually outgrowing the sinful habit of swearing happens simultaneously? If so, please substantiate it from the Bible or the SOP. Thank you.

TE: We're talking apples and oranges here. In order for us to be healed, we need to know the truth. As long as we are angry at God, and feel that He is being unjust, we cannot be forgiven. This problem I'm speaking of is not a legal one. Even if there was a legal problem involved, it's importance would be minuscule in comparison with the issues I'm discussing here.

MM: What about all the sinners out there who are not mad at God? They are perfectly happy to serve sin and Jesus. They perceive God as too kind and loving and merciful to execute justice and judgment against those who merely fall short of keeping the law. "Let us consider what the Bible teaches further concerning the ungodly and unrepentant, whom the Universalist places in heaven as holy, happy angels."

GC 539, 540
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

Let us consider what the Bible teaches further concerning the ungodly and unrepentant, whom the Universalist places in heaven as holy, happy angels. {GC 540.1}

"I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely." Revelation 21:6. This promise is only to those that thirst. None but those who feel their need of the water of life, and seek it at the loss of all things else, will be supplied. "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son." Verse 7. Here, also, conditions are specified. In order to inherit all things, we must resist and overcome sin. {GC 540.2}

Not at all. When dealing with children, you have to work on a level that children understand. However, the hope is that children will grow up.



Paul talks about this when he mention milk and meat.



My argument is not against lists per se, but in the way they are being used. Regarding the last part, to learn to love and appreciate the character of God is what it means to truly have faith.



To love God is the first and greatest of all the commandments. If we are motivated by appreciation, our chances of deep healing are great.



Why do you feel this way?



??? You think then lists become important to me?



Where did I say this?



Where did I say this?



I don't have anything in mind. I'm not hesitant; it's just not something I think about.



Why do you say this?



This is the only reason I'm discussing it, is because it matters to you. I've spent hours and hours discussing something with you that doesn't matter to me because it matters to you.



Would you reveal to a child something he's not ready to deal with? Should the child resent you because you, in your superior wisdom, choose to reveal things to it at the time you deem proper? Why would you find it disturbing that God uses wisdom and judgment in revealing things to us?

Regarding swearing, why would think I'm kidding? Your comment seems a bid ingenuous. What I described is exactly how the process works. How do you think it works? It's certainly possible God could work a miracle, and instantaneously cure a person from swearing at a moment's notice, but I've never met anyone that's happened to. The process I described is what happens in real life, all the time.

Smoking would be another example. Some people stop smoking in a moment, and report that God miraculously took away all desire to smoke. But for many it's a more difficult process. Because a person has a desire to smoke, or even gives in to the desire before finally kicking the habit, does not mean the person is not born again.

I'm at a loss both to understand why you think the examples I've given do not apply, nor why you would think I was joking when I describe a perfectly natural process that presumably anyone would be familiar with.

The law is a description of the principles of God's kingdom. The law of life for the universe is to receive from God in order to give. It is to love others, especially God, instead of loving self. It describes the only way of life and happiness.

The issue is not that God is to this or that to do something, but that it's simply not possible to live if one chooses to live for self. Living for self is not a principle that gives life. It leads to death. Regardless of what one things God will do, if one lives for self, one will die.

How does God lead one away from a life of selfishness? "The goodness of God leads to repentance." The only way is for God to reveal His goodness. This is what the cross does wonderfully.

If you continue further on from 540 yet get to the following:



The wicked are excluded from heaven not because God does something to them, but because of what they have done to themselves. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary. They don't wish to be in heaven.

Tom, thank you for spending so much time studying this with me. I really appreciate it.

Regarding waiting to tell a child about certain sinful habits, no, I cannot think of any sinful habit that I, as a father, would overlook until a better day to tell him or her.

Regarding gradually outgrowing swearing or smoking as it relates to the process of sanctification, no, I do not view it the same way you do. Instead, I see it this way:

1. During the process of conversion, before we are born again, the Holy Spirit gradually reveals to us, in light of the cross, all of our cultivated sinful traits and habits. This may take many months or many years.

2. As each sinful trait and habit is revealed we confess that they are sinful and deserving of death.

3. The moment we confess our last sinful trait and habit our old man dies and is buried. In the same moment we are born again and Jesus implants within us the sinless seed of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous fruits and traits of God's character.

4. As we abide in Jesus, as we partake of the divine nature, as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we do not and cannot commit a known sin.

5. The instant we neglect to abide in Jesus we resurrect our old man and resume sinning.

6. The instant we receive the gift of repentance we are empowered to confess and forsake our sin, God then pardons us, next He restores the relationship our sin severed, and finally we resume abiding in Jesus, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

As this applies to your example of swearing and smoking, I see it this way - Before we experience rebirth we may be able to stop swearing and smoking through shear force of willpower. However, it doesn't count as "righteousness and true holiness". Not until we are born again and begin abiding in Jesus do our resulting good works count as righteousness by faith.

The fact born again believers backslide from time to time, in this case if they swear or smoke, it does not mean they did not truly experience rebirth. Instead, it simply means they neglected to abide in Jesus. Anytime born again believers commit a known sin it simply means they neglected to abide in Jesus. It is impossible to commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus.

Every time they are tempted to swear or smoke, or whatever, and they overcome the urge or impulse by choosing to abide in Jesus, it becomes easier to abide in Jesus the next time they are tempted.

In some cases, the urge or impulse to swear or smoke diminishes until it ceases to exist or to tempt them. But some temptations do not lose their power or appeal, and they have to labor hard to resist them every time they present themselves.

But it doesn't mean they are not born again, neither does it mean they are guilty of sinning. So long as they keep their master passions and appetites under the control of a sanctified will and mind, so long as they abide in Jesus, they are victorious.

Do you see a difference in the way I see it and the way you see it?

Tom, you seem to be suggesting sinners are naturally suicidal, that they would sooner kill themselves than live indefinitely. But this isn't the impression one gets from reading about it in the Bible or the SOP. Satan motivates sinners to think they can defeat God and gain access to the tree of life and live forever. The only thing that stops them is the fact God rains fire down upon them.

I disagree completely with this. In particular, with step 3.



Without being born again, one doesn't even have an interest in overcoming sinful habits. One is born again when one confesses one's sin and accepts Christ as one's personal Savior. This was a very marked experience in my life, and I know precisely when it happened. A young lady shared the Gospel with me, the Holy Spirit revealed Christ to me, I thought about it awhile, and made the decision to accept Christ as my person Savior, and, as the Scripture says, I became a new creation; the Holy Spirit testified to me that I was a child of God.

At that point it became a priority of mine to live for Christ, and the process of overcoming sinful habits began.

This is in harmony with Scripture, reason, and experience.

From the SOP:



Here are the steps:

a.The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God.
b.If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.
c.Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.
d.The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.

This is not a long, protracted process. This happens quickly. The long, protracted process you refer to has to do with God's bringing the soul to the point to where Christ can be presented in a way that the soul may respond.



Notice it says, "suddenly ... the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus." The surrender itself is sudden. The process of getting the soul to where it gladly makes this surrender is what takes time, but this is time which *God* takes, not the human being. It's not a protracted process where the sinner and God work together to get through a list of sinful habits, and when the last sinful habit is finally checked off, God pronounces the sinner born again.

Here's another example:



We have the example of Abraham as well. And David:



What are the common points in these conversions? A conviction of one's sin, one's need for Christ, and a contrite heart. Not a list of sinful habits that finally gets checked off, but a contrite heart.

In the way you are describing it, the person would have to be working to check off these sinful habits one by one until he got to the last one, and then he would be converted. But one cannot even *start* the process, let alone complete it, without being converted. Given the person is not converted, how is he overcoming these sinful habits?

TE: One is born again when one confesses one's sin and accepts Christ as one's personal Savior.

MM: Which sins? Since you do not believe it includes all of their sinful traits and habits, you must have in mind specific sinful traits and habits that are not confessed and crucified until some time after rebirth, right? But didn't we agree it cannot include those kinds of traits and habits that cause people around them to despise the gospel (and I'm not referring to the righteous traits and habits that goad people to madness)?

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TE: At that point it became a priority of mine to live for Christ, and the process of overcoming sinful habits began.

MM: According to the Bible and the SOP "overcoming" sinful habits means subduing them, preventing them from resurfacing, keeping them under the control of a sanctified will and mind. It doesn't imply the evolutionary process you described above.

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TE: Here are the steps:

a.The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God.
b.If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.
c.Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.
d.The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.

MM: That's exactly what I wrote above, right? B follows A; and B precedes C. D and C occur simultaneously. The difference between me and you is that I believe B includes all of our cultivated sinful traits and habits; whereas, you believe it excludes some of them.

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TE: In the way you are describing it, the person would have to be working to check off these sinful habits one by one until he got to the last one, and then he would be converted. But one cannot even *start* the process, let alone complete it, without being converted. Given the person is not converted, how is he overcoming these sinful habits?

MM: Converted to what - to a slow, evolutionary process of gradually sinning less and less intensely until they quit sinning altogether? According to the Bible and the SOP we must first crucify our cultivated old man habits of sinning before we can begin the lifelong process of maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.