Mike,

So you classify my view as a modified form of holy flesh? Yet neither you nor anybody else has shown that the only way to be tempted from within is to be tempted by sinful tendencies.

Here's the context of my statement:

"Yes, Jesus will number and seal exactly 144,000 saints, exactly 12,000 each from 12 tribes. That's what it says in the Bible and the SOP. The numbers used in Daniel and the Revelation are always literal. Yes, the thing associated with the number is symbolic, but not the number itself. In this case, the 12 "tribes" are symbolic."

Do you disagree that the number is literal and that the tribes are symbolic? Do you disagree with the precedence?

Sorry about the implication. No, I do not classify your view of transformed human nature as a modified form of holy flesh. You've made it clear it is not.

Exactly 24 elders on exactly 24 thrones with the area light up by exactly 7 torches (Wonder why there would be need for torch light before the throne of God who is Himself light?) and with them exactly four creatures with exactly six wings und so weiter... We will have to disagree regarding this Mike.

Thanx, Thomas. But do you disagree with the premise - that every number used in D&R is a literal number, and that the thing associated with it is symbolic?

It is my view, and not mine alone, that the number 144000 is equally symbolical with the tribes list that follows it. It has been noted that the thousands of Israel is a phrase refering to the tribes at arms. One thousand being a military unit. 12 thousand times 12 thus would identify the full strength of Israel. Israel being the people of God and today consisting not primarily of ethnic jews but of all of those who follow the Lamb whereever he goes. It then follows that the 144000 is symbolising christian soldiers marching as to war. Although this cannot be drawn to strictly considering that our Commander does not do war the same way humans do war. Here we can also see how the countless multitude fit in, namely, they are the very same people but seen after final victory has been proclaimed.

It says there are:
a)12,000 from 12 tribes
comprise of
b)males
c)virgins

You think a), b) and c) are symbolic, but the 144,000 is literal? No, I see no sense in this. It seems your only basis for asserting this is because that's what the text says. But the text says these are all males every bit as much as it says there are 144,000.

There's another reason the idea there are exactly 144,000 doesn't make sense. The 144,000 are comprised of those who respond to the last message God gives regarding His character. (reference following) Suppose there are more than 144,000 who respond? What will God do with the extras?



I long for this message!

Discerner: This appears to be basically in agreement with Prof Stefanovic's book, "Revelation of Jesus Christ", with his explanation of Revelation 7. It is hard to comprehend the possibility of gathering 12,000 Jews from each of the 12 tribes of Israel for two reasons; 1) Two of the tribes have not existed in over 2000 years; and 2) the Jews from all of the tribes have been scattered all over the world for almost the last 2000 years. Another consideration is the inclusion of the Gentiles...the 'spiritual Jews'.

Chapter 7:1-7 appears to follow immediately the outpouring of the sixth seal in Chapter 6, but prior to the destruction imposed by the seven angels with the seven trumpets of Chapter 8. It appears that the 144,000 are sealed against the destruction of the seven angels. Then in verse 9 of Chapter 7, it refers to a 'throng no man could number' as being before the throne of the 'Lamb of God', which is most likely an inference to the redeemed in heaven after the resurrection. Since those in the grave will not precede those still alive when Jesus comes, it stands to reason that the 144,000 are part of the 'throng no man can number'. As such, possibly the 144,000 is symbolic in that it represents the composition of the military combined units of the Israelite army that fought for Israel against their enemies as a type, and the anti-type would be the army of God that spiritually fights against our enemies...the prince of darkness and those who follow him.

God bless!
Discerner

Yes, I found Mr Stefanovic book to be quite interesting.

This thread is discussing the SOP, and the 144,000 are the ultimate beneficiaries of the SOP. It seems evident to me that the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are two separate and distinct groups. Note the following passage:

[1]Nearest the throne are those who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, but who, plucked as brands from the burning, have followed their Saviour with deep, intense devotion. [2]Next are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith. [3]And beyond is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, . . . before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." Revelation 7:9. Their warfare is ended, their victory won. They have run the race and reached the prize. The palm branch in their hands is a symbol of their triumph, the white robe an emblem of the spotless righteousness of Christ which now is theirs. {GC 665.2}

She describes three groups forming three concentric circles around the throne of God. The first group is closest to the throne, then the second, and finally the third group is the furthest from the throne of God. The 144,000 are included in the second group; whereas, the third group is the Great Multitude. Thus, they cannot be one and the same group.

The second group is composed of two groups. "Next are [1] those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and [2] the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith." The first one is referring to the 144,000.