TE: Why would you need any information from me? You are able to tell me what you think the quote means without any information from me.

MM: Actually, I'm not sure why Jesus needs to plead His blood before the Father in order to buy more probationary time for sinners. I know the Father and the Son are on the same page, so why does He need to plead His blood to stay the hand of the Father? Is it just poetic license?

Hey! We might be on the same page on this.

I think the sanctuary, in general, is designed to teach us spiritual truths, and we get off the track if we try to apply things literally. For example, there is no literal blood in heaven that Jesus literally sprinkles, but that symbolism represents something.

So here we see Jesus pleading before the Father with His hands stretched up saying, "My blood! My blood!"

Obviously the Father doesn't need to be reminded that Jesus died for us. Also, as you rightly point out, Father and Son are "on the same page."

So the conclusion must be that this symbolism is for our benefit. It is communicating some truth to us. What truth?

I think it is that the sacrifice of Christ is accepted by the Father, which is to say that we are accepted in the Beloved. Not because of any merit on our part, but by the grace, or graciousness, of God.

Yes, I agree, pleading the blood of Jesus in heaven before the Father in order to buy more probationary time for sinners, to delay the execution of justice and judgment, is symbolic. It symbolizes the intimate relationship between atonement and destruction. In other words, sinners deserve destruction, but the blood of Jesus gives God the legal right to delay it. But a time is coming when God can no longer legitimately delay the destruction of impenitent sinners. The blood of Jesus can no longer serve to spare them.

Wow! I see it as symbolizing that we need not fear the Father.



This is rather astounding (that you would read this message into the symbolism).



You see God as the destroyer then, correct? (as opposed to Satan, by means of sin).

Why would you fear God since it is He who is holding in check the destruction sinners deserve?


We're talking about Jesus pleading His blood to buy more probationary time for sinners to cease sinning, to experience righteousness by faith, and to delay the destruction they deserve as sinners.


That's not what I said, but it is true that God is the one who law and justice holds responsible for punishing impenitent sinners in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness and then destroying them in the lake of fire.

Law and justice has not commissioned or entrusted sin or Satan to punish and destroy sinners in the lake of fire. On the contrary, Satan himself will be punished and destroyed with his sins and with the sins of the saved, consequently, neither he nor sin can do it. After all, who would destroy sin and Satan if the responsibility rested with either one of the two to eliminate sin and sinners in the lake of fire?

This strikes me as a negative way of looking at things.

We, as fallen human beings, fear God for many reasons. For one thing, sin leads us to view God in an incorrect and negative light. For another, Satan misrepresents God, as being like himself, which leads us to fear Him. Finally, our natures are such that we naturally fear God. For these reasons, Scripture is full of reassurances in regards to God, that we should not fear Him (i.e., be afraid of Him; we should fear him in the OT sense, which means to reverence Him, trust Him etc.)



This doesn't make sense to me. Jesus doesn't change the probationary time of sinners one iota by pleading His blood before the Father. When Christ's character is reproduced in His people, then He will come, and then probation will end for all, because all will have heard the Gospel. It's the proclamation of the Gospel which determines the time, not an action of Christ's pleading His blood.



Law and justice, as you are talking about it, are new concepts, having to do with Western ideas of these terms, and are not to be found in Scripture. Justice in scripture is not retributive, but restorative. Similarly the law is a transcript of God's character, and simply explains what the principles by which God does things are.

God's law denotes what's good, what's right, the only way of life. When people choose another way, suffering, pain and death result. So God, being good, warns His children not to go down this path. But if they do, it will be they themselves which bring about their own destruction.

This principle is born out in GC 35, 36, which talks about how the Jews forged their own fetters, and brought about their own destruction. This is a universal principle, not a special arrangement by which God "destroyed," one of many principles he might use.

The same principle applies to the final judgment, which is really the scope of what we're discussing here. The wicked bring about their own destruction, which is what DA 764 emphasizes by telling us that their destruction is due to their own choice, as opposed to something God does to them.

1.The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life.
2.When one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life
3.People are given time to develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice.
4.By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.

These all emphasize that destruction comes as a result of one's own choices. God is entirely innocent of the fate of all who are lost. Their destiny is fixed by their own choice, and their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves.

This view is entirely in harmony with what Jesus Christ revealed. His life demonstrates a kingdom based on self-sacrificing love, not on retribution, violence or force. Rather than the judgment being some aspect of God's character which Jesus did not reveal, it is entirely in harmony with God's character, which Jesus revealed. The SOP emphasizes this point is informing us that the judgment is based on these same principles of love, mercy and justice which Jesus Christ revealed.



This quote is speaking of the final judgment. So again, no, the final judgment is *not* some new thing about God we did not know, but the same principles of kindness, mercy and love "taught and exemplified" by our Savior, in particular the principle "Love your enemies."

Not all sins are a result of misunderstanding God. For example, it wasn’t sin that initially led Lucifer to misunderstand God. Not all sins make us afraid of God. For example, the following people were surprised to learn God disapproved of them:

Matthew
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Do you disagree with what is described in the quote we’ve been examining?

2T 106
He cries, "Spare them, Father, spare them, they are the purchase of My blood," and lifts to His Father His wounded hands.{2T 106}

EW 38
I saw four angels who had a work to do on the earth, and were on their way to accomplish it. Jesus was clothed with priestly garments. He gazed in pity on the remnant, then raised His hands, and with a voice of deep pity cried, "My blood, Father, My blood, My blood, My blood!" {EW 38.1}


God doesn’t decide to punish and destroy sinners simply because He feels it like. Of course not. Sinners are punished and destroyed in the lake of fire for the simple reason they neglected to embrace the truth. Here’s how she puts it:

PP 55
In the judgment men will not be condemned because they conscientiously believed a lie, but because they did not believe the truth, because they neglected the opportunity of learning what is truth. {PP 55.2}

DA 489
Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth. {DA 489.5}


Listen as she explains it:

“By His word God has bound Himself to execute the penalty of the law on all transgressors.” (6BC 1095) “In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man’s sin.” (CON 22) “Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man’s stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon.” (1SM 340)


Tom, let’s look at your quote in context:


The Bible says, "All the wicked will He destroy." But you say, They destroy themselves.

Sister White wrote, “The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being.” But you say, They destroy themselves.

Sister White wrote, “God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited.” But you say, They destroy themselves.

I wrote that sin causes us to misunderstand God. It's also true that sins are a result of misunderstanding God, so there's a vicious cycle that goes on, but that wasn't my point here. I wrote:





I think sin always has this result. We see this in what happened to Adam and Eve.



It should be remembered that Jesus said this to make clear a point. The point is that one can be unconverted and think one is doing things for the Lord, when that's not really the case.



Those who are in the group that think they have done great works have been deluded by sin. They, in reality, hate Jesus Christ and His followers. This really proves my point, because these people have been so deluded by sin that they don't even realize that they don't know Jesus Christ.

At the final judgment, this will be their reaction:



Note that they have, indeed, been corrupted by sin. They have been unfitted for heaven, and God's mere presence is to them as a consuming fire. They just want to flee from God (the same as Adam and Eve).



I've been telling you what I think it means. I haven't been disagreeing with it. That would be impossible. She's telling something she saw. The only way I could disagree with it would be if I didn't believe she actually saw this in vision.

I believe she saw what she said in vision, and I've been attempting to explain what I think God was trying to communicate to her (and us through her).



The same thing apples here. We've both agreeing that the Father and Jesus are on the same side, so we've been discussing how this should be understood. Certainly Jesus was not trying to influence the Father to do something the Father was disinclined to do.

The only way I could disagree with this would be to deny that Ellen White really saw this in vision. I'm sure she did see this. Why did God give her this vision? What does He want us to know? That's the question.



Sort of. It's not that they neglected some arbitrary fact, but that they neglected information regarding their safety, information that would protect them from danger.

For example, suppose it's a rainy night, with poor visibility, and your driving, and I tell you, "Stop! The bridge is out!" If you continue, and are destroyed because you neglected by counsel, are you condemned because you neglected truth? Yes. But only because that which I was warning you of really was dangerous. It is the fact that the bridge was out that caused your demise; not simply that you didn't do what I said.



Yes, this is the same idea I've been citing you in regards to the condemnation of infants. Condemnation, or the frown of God, comes when light is rejected. Again, that's what I've been saying, right?



None of these actions are arbitrary (i.e. "imposed"; not "capricious").

There are two roads. One is a road which leads to death, the other to life. The road that leads to life is the road of "the law of life for the universe." It is characterized by receiving from God, and giving to others. The other road, that leads to death, is the road of selfishness. It is characterized by receiving from God, and hoarding, and, more than that, taking from others, and stealing from God.

God, in love and mercy, warns us of the truth. "Don't go this way! This leads to death!" He warns us. "Come, My child! This is the way!" He beckons us.

If He refuses, He gives us the result of our choice (this is His wrath). We see what happens in the GC 543 quote. Those who choose the wrong path unfit themselves for heaven, and long to flee from God's presence. He can't, in love, chain them to His side, as EGW puts it. In love, mercy and kindness, God allows them the fruit of their choice, which is death.



Inspiration says both. It is not I who says the wicked destroy themselves. I've quoted to you at length many inspired passages which state this.

Here's one I haven't presented before:



So it's not just me, right?

So both the following statements are in accordance with inspiration:

a.The wicked destroy themselves.
b.God destroys the wicked.

How do we understand this? It's easy, given that inspiration often presents God as doing that which He permits.

The exclusion from heaven of the wicked is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. God allows the wicked that which they choose, which is destruction.

Here's something I have quoted before:



The destruction which comes upon the wicked is not "an act of arbitrary power on the part of God," but rather "the results of their own choice."

This is very similar to the GC 543 quote, in that she points out that the wicked wreck their characters, so that God's mere presence is to them a consuming fire, and that their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves.

Thank you, Tom, for discussing these issues with me. I'm pretty sure I understand your point of view. In answer to the question - To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? - you believe He paid us, right?

No. Christ did not owe us a debt.