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Re: The truth about the fall
#9921
09/08/03 04:10 PM
09/08/03 04:10 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
If God did not build in an "escape plan" for Adam and Eve (by not personally warning Eve about eating the forbidden fruit) - then just exactly what are you saying about why God did not warn her Himself?
If Lucifer had not had to resort to deception then getting Adam and Eve to follow him would require them to make rational decisions against God. Lucifer would then own then outright and if God still wanted them He would then be reduced to making a pitch to them to return. Because of the deception we are still members of the family of God. The error in Christian doctrine is in not recognizing that the call to us is not the call to belong but the call to become ambassadors.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9922
09/09/03 01:20 AM
09/09/03 01:20 AM
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SDA
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On we are on the same page? I'm not sure how your last post answers my questions???? If our salvation is based on Eve's deception (rather than rational disobedience) - what about Adam? he was not deceived! his fall was based on rational disobedience!
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9923
09/09/03 08:06 AM
09/09/03 08:06 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
On we are on the same page? I'm not sure how your last post answers my questions????
In that case you could have simply told me what aspects of your questions were not addressed. It is possible I missed something in your questions.
quote:
If our salvation is based on Eve's deception (rather than rational disobedience) - what about Adam? he was not deceived! his fall was based on rational disobedience!
Your question implicitly puts a rift in the family union, by attempting to separate Eve from Adam. Allow me to draw attention to the fact that Lucifer never spoke to Adam so he did not tempt him. Avoid the temptation to cast Eve as Adam's temptress. Adam's act was deliberate but, contrary to Paul's take on the subject, it did not constitute the avenue by which the human race fell into sin.
(In anticipation of your objection to my comment on Paul's misapplication I would draw your attention to 1 Cor. 13: 9 - 12. Paul was aware that he only had partial understanding.)
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9924
09/10/03 03:11 AM
09/10/03 03:11 AM
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SDA
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What do we call it when Eve pleaded with Adam to eat the forbidden fruit?
Family union? Are you somehow implying that Adam sinned in Eve before he ate the forbidden fruit? as in corporate sin?
In what way did Paul fail to properly convey the truth about the Fall?
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9925
09/09/03 04:44 PM
09/09/03 04:44 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
What do we call it when Eve pleaded with Adam to eat the forbidden fruit?
Gen. 3:6 - "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." It is one thing to fill in obvious gaps in the biblical writer's story, something else to add unnecessary details that are not warranted. If Eve had pleaded with Adam Moses would have so stated. She had nothing to gain by having him eat of the tree. By this time she was convinced that Adam had been mistaked about God's instructions and was merely sharing with him something desirable.
quote:
Family union? Are you somehow implying that Adam sinned in Eve before he ate the forbidden fruit? as in corporate sin?
I am suggesting that the entire race fell in Eve. When Paul says in Adam he understood that to include the actions of Eve, because she was an integral part of Adam. It is unfortunate that the interpretation of that passage was polluted by the cultural influences on the minds of Christians who don't even realize that their interpretations do great disservice to the family unit.
quote:
In what way did Paul fail to properly convey the truth about the Fall?
Paul tried to use the fact that Eve was deceived to establish her position relative to the man in 2 Tim 2.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9926
09/09/03 07:18 PM
09/09/03 07:18 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Southwest USA
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The Bible says Eve gave Adam the forbidden fruit to eat. Did she say anything to him? Did he question her?
Are you suggesting that Adam was already a sinner even before he ate the forbidden fruit?
What about the man of 2 Tim 2? and Paul's interpretation of Eve's deception and fall?
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9927
09/09/03 08:11 PM
09/09/03 08:11 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
The Bible says Eve gave Adam the forbidden fruit to eat. Did she say anything to him? Did he question her?
Read the story. It's all there. God sanctioned Adam because he listened to his wife. Man was not punished for allowing sin in but for listening to his wife. Had man not eaten he would not have had the curse of hard labor but sin would still be in the earth. quote:
Are you suggesting that Adam was already a sinner even before he ate the forbidden fruit?
The issue is not man's sinfulness but whether man belonged to Lucifer. It is Lucifer's claims that has kept this world in misery this long.
quote:
What about the man of 2 Tim 2? and Paul's interpretation of Eve's deception and fall?
Read the chapter and see how Paul uses Eve's deception inappropriately.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9928
09/10/03 01:22 AM
09/10/03 01:22 AM
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SDA
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Southwest USA
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If Adam had not sinned by eating the forbidden fruit Eve offered him what kind of nature would their children have been born with? sinless or sinful?
Do you really believe Adam, if he had not sinned, would have had to live with Eve in a sinful world run by Satan?
I think the passage you're referring to is in 1 Timothy:
2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Why do you believe Paul erred in this passage?
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9929
09/10/03 12:41 PM
09/10/03 12:41 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
If Adam had not sinned by eating the forbidden fruit Eve offered him what kind of nature would their children have been born with? sinless or sinful?
Here you are perpetuating one of the major errors in Christianity; the idea that the Fall changed human nature. Human nature has never changed for if our nature had changed we would cease being human. The only thing that changed was our condition. The moment Eve ate the fruit the entire human race was placed into a sinful condition from which Christ has come to rescue us.
quote:
Do you really believe Adam, if he had not sinned, would have had to live with Eve in a sinful world run by Satan?
What's so strange about that. You accept the fact that one individual condemned an entire race to a live of servitude to Lucifer. Eve's error infected Adam in the same way that Lucifer's fall infected Eve. Lucifer was able to plant doubt in Eve's mind without mentioning the concept simply by asking for information. Adam would be infected because he would have to consider the fact that Eve doubted his word. Sin is insidious in its effect.
quote:
I think the passage you're referring to is in 1 Timothy:
2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Why do you believe Paul erred in this passage?
Did you realize how in v. 14 he seems to imply that Adam was not in the transgression? That is the basis for putting the woman in her place. He unwittingly separated the union God had created.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9930
09/10/03 02:51 PM
09/10/03 02:51 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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So, are we born with a sinless nature? And what is the difference between nature and condition?
How and when did Lucifer's fall infect Eve and then Adam? Do you agree with Paul that sin entered by the one man Adam? Romans 5. If so, then what about Eve's fall? Was Jesus also infected?
Are you sure Paul was trying to put women in their place when he wrote Eve was deceived and sinned? Whose sin was greater? Eve who was deceived or Adam who chose to die with her?
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