Tom, there are other passages which clearly say we do not sin while abiding in Jesus. Again, we do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. Such promises, however, in no way imply we lose the freedom or ability to choose to sin. You're saying so doesn't make it so. The same thing applied to Jesus while He was here in the flesh. He couldn't sin while abiding in the Father. But He would have sinned if He had neglected to abide in the Father.

The promises simply say - You will not and cannot commit a know sin while abiding in Jesus. That's the point. That's the truth. The fact we can neglect to abide in Jesus and be in sin again does not in the least diminish the promises. Neglecting to sin is not committing a sin, but apart from Jesus we cannot prevent ourselves from sinning. Neglecting to abide in Jesus and being in sin are separate but simultaneous things.

Considering the title of this thread, the problem I see here is that you seem to believe people are born again with certain uncrucified sinful traits and habits. You've named things like saying "jeez" as an example of a sinful habit someone could be born again with. But where in the Bible or the SOP is this example supported?

Also, here are a few more promises which agree with 1 John 3:6,9:

Romans
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

2 Peter
1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You just recently said that we can commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. You said that neglecting to abide in Jesus is such a sin.



Previously you said it was. You said it was a known sin.



This whole subject is not treated explicitly in Scripture. No Scripture writer thought about things in these terms, so there won't be any examples treating this one way or the other. What we can find are general principles that we can reason from.

Regarding the "jeez" example, what exactly are you arguing? Are you arguing that no born again person will say, "Jeez"?

I don't know what you're point is in the passages you quoted. I wish to make clear that I certainly agree with idea of victory over sin. I just don't see the particular theory that you are espousing in Scripture. I think you put things in an unnecessarily forced fashion.

Here's a passage from EGW:



Continuing a bit later:



This is dealing with the same subject manner you are. I find these descriptions to be very uplifting and positive. For example:

1. Jesus has been describing to His hearers the unfailing mercy and love of God, and He bids them therefore to be perfect.
2.In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command.
3.God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.
4.With untold love our God has loved us, and our love awakens toward Him as we comprehend something of the length and breadth and depth and height of this love that passeth knowledge.
5.By the revelation of the attractive loveliness of Christ, by the knowledge of His love expressed to us while we were yet sinners, the stubborn heart is melted and subdued, and the sinner is transformed and becomes a child of heaven.
6. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him.
7.That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him.

Seven is a nice number, so I'll stop here. These are all wonderfully uplifting thoughts, all in the context of "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Tom, neglecting to abide in Jesus results in abiding in sin. They are not, however, one and same things. True, they happen simultaneously, but neglecting to abide in Jesus is not a sin. Yes, I allowed myself to be influenced in saying it is a sin of omission, but I am now retracting it. Again, the instant we neglect to abide in Jesus we revert back to abiding in sin, self, and Satan. There is no neutral place; we are either abiding in Jesus or abiding in sin.

DA 324
But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. (DA 324)

TE: Regarding the "jeez" example, what exactly are you arguing? Are you arguing that no born again person will say, "Jeez"?

MM: Actually, I place the "jeez example" in the sins of ignorance category. The Holy Spirit may or may not reveal it to them before they experience the miracle of rebirth. But it doesn't address my question to you - Are we born again with the sins we practiced before we embarked upon the process of converting to Christ?

SD 300
The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

Also, words evolve and change meanings over time. Very few people view the word "jeez" as slang for Jesus. Golly, gosh, gee whiz, shoot, crud, dang, darn, etc are other words that have evolved and don't mean what they used to. Thus, it may not be necessary to stop using them. But if they offend someone, then they shouldn't be used. Personally, I don't use them; thus, I avoid inadvertently offending someone.

---

TE: I don't know what you're point is in the passages you quoted. I wish to make clear that I certainly agree with idea of victory over sin. I just don't see the particular theory that you are espousing in Scripture. I think you put things in an unnecessarily forced fashion.

MM: How so? I am simply taking God at His word. Instead of assuming the promises of perfection mean something other than what they plainly say, I take them at face value. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not" means exactly what it says. All the other promises I posted above say the exact same thing. You seem to be saying something different.

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TE: Seven is a nice number, so I'll stop here. These are all wonderfully uplifting thoughts, all in the context of "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."

MM: I agree with them, too. Surprise, surprise. So, I am terribly confused as to how you can go on to say some people are born again with unrevealed, unconfessed, uncrucified cultivated traits and habits of sin. I am pleased, though, that you have been unable to cite a legitimate example to support this theory, which leads me to believe you actually do not believe it.

Wouldn't the "jeez" example apply here?

The "process" of converting to Christ may be long on God's part, but on our part it's not. It's simply when we choose to respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit and accept Christ as our personal Savior.



Jesus said "let your yay be yay, and your nay be nay." The words you cited haven't "evolved." They mean what they always have, although people using the words may be ignorant as to their meaning.

For example:



It's interesting that they have a date for this.



But you don't do this, or rather, you do this selectively in an arbitrary fashion. For example, John says that one who is born again does not sin, and "cannot sin." But when it comes to this you do not simply take God at His word. Instead, you assume the promise means something different than what it plainly says.



Why doesn't, "Whosoever is born of God ... cannot sin" mean exactly what it says?



I agree they say the same thing as each other, if that's what you mean. They say that victory of sin is possible.



Of course you would say that you agree with these statements, but you give them no emphasis. That is, you don't talk about these things. Instead you talk about your theory in regards to having to confess and crucify every known sin, etc.

My point is that the statement I quoted deals with the same theme of perfection, but does to in a heartwarming, uplifting way.



Where do I say this? I think you're trying to put words in my mouth. I don't recall every saying this. I recall you're making statements along these lines and my having issues in regards to your theory, but that's not the same thing as my saying the converse of what you say. I don't believe I've ever said these words you are attributing to me, let alone "go on" saying them.



I never claimed to believe what you have ascribed to me.

Actually you said it was a known sin.



I think God may have a more nuanced view of things than you do. You seem to be very ruled based, yes/no in your thinking. I think more things may be involved than what you are allowing for.

I don't know about Tom, but I believe this is possible. In a previous discussion I've cited the example of Peter in his prejudice against the gentiles.

I don't really care for the classification "unrevealed, unconfessed, uncrucified cultivated traits and habits of sin." but given that you responded to this characterization, which of these do you believe applies to Peter's case?

If he wasn't aware of this sin, he couldn't have confessed or crucified it.

Ok, so you would put it in the "unrevealed" category.