“If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter.” (3SM 139)

R: Satan wouldn’t have made capital of that, because the same happens to us after we are born again – we are united with the divinity, in the same way that He was.

R: We do have a carnal mind which Christ didn’t have, and which is just crucified, not eliminated, at conversion, and which tries constantly to reassert itself. Besides, passions and inclinations are in the mind, or heart.

Sin did not kill the law, but it did kill the carnal mind in Paul. {1SM 213.1}

Their parents are so anxious for them, that they accept anything that appears favorable, and do not labor with them, and teach them that the carnal mind must die. {2SG 261.2}

That which is pleasing to the natural heart and carnal mind is cherished. If the lust of the flesh had been rooted out of their hearts, they would not be so weak. {CH 570.3}

Jesus continued: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Rom. 8:7; Matt. 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. {DA 172.1}

So, MM, you want the old man mind in tact and revivable for tempting us, but not alive and sharing space & power with Christ's presence in our lives? After all we are supposed to entertain the old heart's presence until we are changed in the twinkling of an eye: that's the heart of the two covenants' truth...

You weren't leaving a hint, were you, of the old heart not hanging around at all? It is agreed that neither should we serve two masters nor do we have both old and new hearts reigning simultaneously in our new, spiritual life.

The Saviour said, "Except a man be born from above," unless he shall receive a new heart, new desires, purposes, and motives, leading to a new life, "he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3, margin. The idea that it is necessary only to develop the good that exists in man by nature, is a fatal deception. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 3:7. Of Christ it is written, "In Him was life; and the life was the light of men"--the only "name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." John 1:4; Acts 4:12. {SC 18.2}

It is the work of conversion and sanctification to reconcile men to God by bringing them into accord with the principles of His law. In the beginning, man was created in the image of God. He was in perfect harmony with the nature and the law of God; the principles of righteousness were written upon his heart. But sin alienated him from his Maker. He no longer reflected the divine image. His heart was at war with the principles of God's law. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7). But "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son," that man might be reconciled to God. Through the merits of Christ he can be restored to harmony with his Maker. His heart must be renewed by divine grace; he must have a new life from above. This change is the new birth, without which, says Jesus, "he cannot see the kingdom of God." {NL 11.3}

To be pardoned in the way that Christ pardons is not only to be forgiven, but to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. The Lord says, "A new heart will I give unto thee." The image of Christ is to be stamped upon the very mind, and heart, and soul. The apostle says, "And we have the mind of Christ." Without the transforming process which can come alone through divine power, the original propensities to sin are left in the heart in all their strength, to forge new chains, to impose a slavery that can never be broken by human power. . . . {RC 303.4}

The youth especially stumble over this phrase, "A new heart." They do not know what it means. They look for a special change to take place in their feelings. This they term conversion. Over this error thousands have stumbled to ruin, not understanding the expression, "Ye must be born again." . . . When Jesus speaks of the new heart, He means the mind, the life, the whole being. To have a change of heart is to withdraw the affections from the world, and fasten them upon Christ. To have a new heart is to have a new mind, new purposes, new motives. What is the sign of a new heart?--a changed life. There is a daily, hourly dying to selfishness and pride. {SD 100.2}

Then a spirit of kindness will be manifested, not by fits and starts, but continually. There will be a decided change in attitude, in deportment, in words and actions toward all with whom you are in any way connected. You will not magnify their infirmities, you will not place them in an unfavorable light. You will work in Christ's lines. . . . {SD 100.3}

Babies need and have a Saviour: you're avoiding the need, because you object to eternal damnation being based also on the law regarding human nature - allowing only for sinful choices to be final. Human nature is no fault of ours, but it is our problem which Jesus solved by his death and his life - each meeting demands of the law.

Rosangela, the problem, as I see it, with substituting words in the way you have suggested is that it doesn't reflect the obvious meaning of the original sentence construction. For example, the word "flesh" refers to the carnal lusts and affections. According to the Bible and the SOP, the lusts and affections that war against the Spirit and mind of the new man do not constitute sinning. Yes, they are sinful, but God does not count us guilty of sinning. Which is why she wrote - "the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God."

With this in mind, you are asking us to consider an interpretation which forces us to conclude - The higher powers are to be subjected to the higher powers.

Are you saying we are born again with our old man mind in tact, that Jesus dwells upon a throne that is divided?
If flesh mind is dead, how, then, can it continue to tempt us from within? Are we born again with two hearts, with two minds, with both the mind/heart of the old man and the new man?

T: I agree with this, except for the "born" part.
R: This exactly is the crux of the disagreement.
T: True. I believe Christ was genetically like we are.

Before you said passions and appetites are in the flesh, so you must mean that some passions are in the flesh and some in the heart I guess.

Having a special power would include not having internal foes, right?

No, the carnal mind must die; otherwise, we cannot experience the miracle of rebirth.

It should be obvious, therefore, that our internal foes "have their seat in the body and work through it."

My point is not that you are making Christ like us, but that you trying to make us like Christ. You are trying to say that we were not born as enemies of God and His law, with a carnal mind, partakers of the satanic nature, but you are trying to smooth man's condition in order to put Christ and us on the same level.

(Rosangela)Sure. Self must die. Does this mean we will never have problems with self again? The same applies to the carnal mind. Both are synonyms.

Where specifically do the Bible and Ellen White say that carnal lusts and affections do not constitute sinning?

I think the way you substitute words does not reflect the obvious meaning of the original sense. You said that “the ‘flesh’ in this context refers to the animal propensities.” So, the phrase would read: “Animal propensities, of themselves, cannot act contrary to the will of God”. Obviously you cannot use the verb “act” in reference to “propensities”. Propensities cannot “act,” while the body can “act.” You also said that “the word ‘flesh’ refers to the carnal lusts and affections.” The same would apply here. Carnal lusts and affections cannot “act.” Besides, the word “lust” already implies participation in sin, which is clear from the quotes below:

“Many regard this text as a warning against licentiousness only; but it has a broader meaning. It forbids every injurious gratification of appetite or passion. Every perverted appetite becomes a warring lust. Appetite was given us for a good purpose, not to become the minister of death by being perverted, and thus degenerating into ‘lusts, which war against the soul.’” Peter's admonition is a most direct and forcible warning against the use of all stimulants and narcotics. These indulgences may well be classed among the lusts that exert a pernicious influence upon moral character.” {Mar 81.1}

“He names some of the forms of fleshly lusts,--‘idolatry, drunkenness, and such like.’ And after mentioning the fruits of the Spirit, among which is temperance, he adds, ‘And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts.’” {HR, November 1, 1882 par. 13}


Huh? The text just means that the physical powers (the body) are to be subjected to the higher powers (the mind).


What? There is no “flesh mind,” there is a “carnal mind,” or “carnal nature,” which is self and its tendencies. It may be said, at conversion, that self is slain, crucified or subdued, but this certainly does not mean it will not try to reassert itself.
(Obs. Self, Carnal nature, carnal mind and carnal heart are all synonyms.)

The carnal heart must be crucified; for its tendency is to moral corruption, and the end thereof is death. {AG 312.5}

But Jesus says, "my grace is sufficient for you." Yes it is sufficient to overcome and subdue the "natural," carnal, heart. {YI, November 1, 1857 par. 7}

Many are filled with self-importance, and esteem themselves above their brethren. Such should let self die; let the carnal mind be crucified. {BTS, August 1, 1912 par. 6}

They are sold under sin and must die to the carnal mind. Self must be slain. {3T 475.1}

But as, when in actual conflict, he contends for the mastery, overcomes his antagonist by repeated and well-directed blows, beats him to the ground, and holds him there till he acknowledges himself conquered, so did the apostle [Paul] fight against the temptations of Satan and the evil propensities of the carnal nature. {LP 167.2}

“Self--the old disobedient nature--must be crucified, and Christ must take up His abode in the heart. Thus the human agent is born again, with a new nature.” {ST, July 26, 1905 par. 6}