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Re: The truth about the fall
#9931
09/11/03 03:49 AM
09/11/03 03:49 AM
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quote:
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
A couple of questions come to me from reading the above quoted verses:
1 - Was Adam there with Eve during Eve's conversation with the devil through the medium of the serpent, or was Eve alone?
2 - Was Eve the only one who was deceived, or was Adam also deceived?
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9932
09/10/03 04:34 PM
09/10/03 04:34 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
1 - Was Adam there with Eve during Eve's conversation with the devil through the medium of the serpent, or was Eve alone?
We don't know for certain, but given the fact that EGW separates them in order to make the point that EGW had erred by straying from her husband I think it is best to accept Moses' account as given. It is likely they were separated by a small distance, attending to different duties in the garden. How close do you have to be for "with" to apply?
quote:
2 - Was Eve the only one who was deceived, or was Adam also deceived?
In 1 Tim. 2:14 Paul says only Eve was deceived and that makes sense given the facts. When Eve offered Adam the piece of fruit he was well aware of its origin. There was no deception nor was any intended.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9933
09/10/03 05:58 PM
09/10/03 05:58 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Darius, please don't forget my questions on the bottom of page 4. Thank you.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9934
09/10/03 08:25 PM
09/10/03 08:25 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
So, are we born with a sinless nature? And what is the difference between nature and condition?
Nature defines what you are. We will never have plant nature, for example. We were created with human nature in a sinless condition. Incidentally, the text which asks can an Ethiopian change his skin or the leapard his spots attempts to emphasize the permanency of nature. If you think you are evil then all your attempts at doing good will fail because we always do easiest what comes 'naturally.' However, we all find ourselves in this sinful condition and we must be careful not to buy into the devil's lie that it is our nature.
quote:
How and when did Lucifer's fall infect Eve and then Adam? Do you agree with Paul that sin entered by the one man Adam? Romans 5. If so, then what about Eve's fall? Was Jesus also infected?
Notice that the serpent NEVER mentioned the forbidden tree. All he had to do was ask for information and Eve's mind did the rest. Because we were made with reasoning minds whenever there is dissonance we try to resolve it. When Paul says that sin entered by one man we need to remember that the word for Adam refers to the entity represented by both the man and the woman. It is in error that we emphasize the gender differences of the word 'man' when it simply refers to humans. With that understanding there is no need to ask about Eve's fall or Adam's fall. Sin entered through humans because humans had dominion over the earth.
quote:
Are you sure Paul was trying to put women in their place when he wrote Eve was deceived and sinned? Whose sin was greater? Eve who was deceived or Adam who chose to die with her?
Paul's writings demonstrate a studious effort to silence women. He was influenced by his culture and misunderstood what occured in Eden. However, we own him a debt of gratitude because he is the only biblical writer who adds any credibility to the story Moses told in Gen. 3. Incidentally, there is nothing like greater sin. Nor does the idea of Adam choosing to die with Eve reverberate with truth. There were no signs on Eve to show that she was dying. The proof of that fact lies in God's decision to expel them from the garden lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever.
It is amazing how a simple thing as overlooking the fact that Eve did not hear from God the prohibition has led to such wild speculative views.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9935
09/12/03 03:46 AM
09/12/03 03:46 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Darius, thank you for attempting to explain your new insights on the fall of mankind in the garden of Eden. However, I cannot agree with you. I am fully persuaded the insights God shared through Paul and Ellen White are correct. I have nothing further to say on this topic. Again, thank you for taking the time to study with me. I hope in future you study yourself back into harmony with Paul and Sister White.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9936
09/11/03 04:12 PM
09/11/03 04:12 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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I must question your approach to the study of the Bible. According to what you have just written you have totally dismissed the fact that my disagreement with EGW is on Point A based on the truth of Paul's view on Point B in which he was attempting to hold to a third Position C, which was tangential to our discussion. It is crystal clear that Paul's opinion on Point B disagrees with EGW's position on Point A. Yet, for reasons that to this point elude me, you have attempted to give the impression that Paul and EGW agree on Point A and that I disagree with both of them. This comes very close to intellectual dishonesty and it pains me greatly.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9937
09/11/03 04:24 PM
09/11/03 04:24 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 213
Alabama
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The bigger questions I see (after wading through the previous 4 pages of discussion) is this, can the bible be wrong and/or can prophets be wrong? Secondly, if it were proven that much of the bible was wrong how would we respond? Lastly, the stories in the bible regarding humans may be all we have in terms of what we can study and discuss, however clearly there were alot of people who lived and had a history with God that were never recorded and preserved for us to read.
My point is this, God may have given us all that we know, but He did not give us all that He knows.... and as we study we will realize that even with what he has given us we don't even know very much about that.....
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9938
09/11/03 05:00 PM
09/11/03 05:00 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Claborn:
The bigger questions I see (after wading through the previous 4 pages of discussion) is this, can the bible be wrong and/or can prophets be wrong?
Two issues here. It probably is time for us to cease granting human characteristics to the Bible. The Bible does not say anything. It is a record. When John reminds us that Elijah was a man like us he is telling us that God will use us even with our imperfections. When Joshua tells the Hebrews that God won't forgive them if they went after other gods we know that he is not making a statement of fact even though that may be what he truly believed, based on his world view. When Paul says that he was only able to see through a glass darkly we understand that he wanted us to apply our enlightened experiences to what he wrote. If we turn the Bible into a god we have violated the very first commandment.
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9939
09/12/03 03:16 AM
09/12/03 03:16 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 213
Alabama
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Darius,
Sometimes though I would submit that we subconsciously make an idol of the bible, and indeed we attribute to it divine characteristics..... I mean think about it, we call it The Holy Bible...... and we also think like the Jews of old.... we search the scriptures because in them we think there is eternal life, but they testify of Christ.....
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Re: The truth about the fall
#9940
09/12/03 03:39 AM
09/12/03 03:39 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Claborn:
and we also think like the Jews of old.... we search the scriptures because in them we think there is eternal life, but they testify of Christ.....
This is one of the ironies of Christianity. Most people who quote that text miss that point. Misinterpretation of the Bible is so widespread it is appalling.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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