TE: If we wish to know what God is like, we have merely to consider His Son. "When You've seen Me, you've seen the Father."

MM: Please cite an example of Jesus doing the following while here: "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored." {LDE 242.3}

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TE: I just quoted what you said. *You* said that their flesh catches on flames. Do you disagree with what you said previously? Or do you agree that their flesh catches on flames? Assuming you agree with what you said previously, then you believe:

1.God rains fire upon the wicked.
2.Flames engulf their flesh.

MM: I do not remember saying "their flesh catches on flames". The phrase doesn't even make sense to me. All I know is what we're told, namely, fire from above and below will cause the wicked to suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness. These same fires will eventually burn up the wicked and rubble of earth.

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Deuteronomy
28:63 And it shall come to pass, [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

"So the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you." This doesn't sound like God, does it?

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Tom, you have been advocating that it is evil angels, not holy angels, who will pour out the 7LPs. In the Bible the holy angels attribute the out pouring of the plagues to God. Would you have me believe the evil angels will do something that will cause the holy angels to praise God?

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In Revelation 7 God commands 4 holy angels to let the 4 winds blow. We both agree this symbolizes holy angels allowing evil angels to control the "fierce winds of human passion".

Revelation
7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

However, in Revelation 15 and 16 God commands 7 holy angels to pour out the 7LPs. He does not command them to let evil angels do it. There is no way you can expect anybody to believe evil angels receive the vials of plagues in the temple in heaven or that they leave the temple in heaven to pour them out.

Revelations
15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Why? Are you disagreeing with my assertion, "If we wish to know what God is like, we have merely to consider His Son. 'When You've seen Me, you've seen the Father.'"

To answer your question, the first thing that pops into my mind would be Jerusalem.



You just said a couple of quotes ago that the flames would work their way up to their flesh, something like that. And previously you spoke about them being in flames.

Forget the specific language, do you disagree with the idea? Here's the idea:

1.God does something to the wicked which involves literal fire (e.g. raining fire upon them from heaven)
2.As a result, the wicked become on fire, which is to say, they burn as a result of literal fire engulfing them.



No, I never said this.



The 7 last plagues result according to the same principles involved in the destruction of Jerusalem. God's Spirit is rejected to the point to where He finally withdraws. The angels praise God for His righteousness and justice. This act is indeed a righteous and just one which God performs.



The holy angels pouring out the last plagues is the releasing the winds of strife. The holy angels release, and the wicked angels destroy.

This is always the case, MM. Good angels do good, and wicked angels destroy. They follow their masters:



What good would be accomplished by God's inflicting such horror upon human beings? Honestly, I cannot fathom how Bible believing Christians could believe such a thing. This is simply totally contrary to God's character.



One can hardly imagine a scenario more at odds with the sentiment expressed here than what you are suggesting. God does not possess the spirit of Satan. He has no disposition whatsoever to hurt and destroy those who disagree with Him. His only desire is to save them. When they refuse to respond to His Spirit, because He respects their free will, He gives them over to their master of choice, and it is Satan who hurts and destroys them because Satan *does* have the spirit of Satan.

Jerusalem? It was destroyed 40 years after Jesus returned to heaven. How can you cite the destruction of Jerusalem as an example of Jesus using, while here in the flesh, His enemies to punish sinners? Are there no examples to substantiate your theory?


Here's what makes sense to me - Fire from above and below will cause the wicked to suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness. These same two sources of fire will eventually burn up the waste and rubble on earth, including deceased sinners.

What more can we say about it? That's all we've been told, right? Exactly how sinners suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness has not been explained to us. Why speculate about it? What is your point?


But do you believe it?


In the case of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, God withdrew His protection and gave evil angels permission to use the Roman army to lay waste the city and its sinners. Are you suggesting this is what will happen during the 7LPs, that God will give evil angels permission to use human armies to pour out the plagues?


No, Tom, the 4 angels releasing the 4 winds is not the out pouring of the 7LPs. Instead, it is just one part of what happens during the out pouring of the plagues. Please review the quotes posted earlier on this thread.

By the way, what makes you think it would be horrifying for God to stand back and watch His children suffer while holy angels use plagues to destroy them, but it wouldn't be horrifying if evil angels did it instead?

Jesus dealt with Jerusalem a lot in His teachings. He exclaimed:



He talks about how He longed to save Jerusalem, and likens His protecting care to that of a hen and her chicks. Without that protecting care, terrible things would happen to Jerusalem.



I'm not sure what you're referring to as "my theory". I assume you mean this:



But this wasn't me, so I don't know why you would call this theory mine. Also, I just gave Jerusalem as an example. Jerusalem is a fantastic example, because we have so much light about they dynamics of the situation.

OTOH, there are no examples of Jesus acting in according with your idea that God uses force to achieve His means, or that He tortures and kills though who do not do what He tells them to. (Please pardon the use of the word "torture," but I don't know what other word to use. If you suggest another suitable word you prefer, I'll use that, but I'm referring to the idea that God will engulf the wicked with literal fire from above and beneath, without their dying for many hours or days, all the while being burned by literal fire.)

Perhaps this is your point, that Jesus Christ did not reveal all man can know about God, because He didn't reveal this. If so, I disagree. I believe when Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father" He was telling the full and complete truth. We know exactly and completely what God is like by looking at Jesus Christ.

TE: Also, I just gave Jerusalem as an example. Jerusalem is a fantastic example, because we have so much light about they dynamics of the situation.

MM: Tom, you are way out on a limb insisting that what Jesus said about Jerusalem constitutes an example of Jesus using His enemies to punish sinners. I don't get it. I've asked you to cite an example of Jesus using His enemies to punish sinners *while He was here in the flesh* and you point me to something that happened 40 years after He returned to heaven. What's up with that?

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TE: OTOH, there are no examples of Jesus acting in according with your idea that God uses force to achieve His means, or that He tortures and kills though who do not do what He tells them to.

MM: As you know, neither do I believe such a thing. God does not use force to torture or kill impenitent sinners. Instead, as quoted earlier, He sometimes uses His enemies to punish and destroy them. At the end of time, He will employ fire from above and below to punish and destroy sinners in the lake of fire. "Force" is not a word that describes what God does when circumstances force Him to punish and destroy sinners. It is called - Justice.

Here's what makes sense to me - Fire from above and below will cause the wicked to suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness. These same two sources of fire will eventually burn up the waste and rubble on earth, including deceased sinners.

What more can we say about it? That's all we've been told, right? Exactly how sinners suffer in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness has not been explained to us. Why speculate about it?

What is your point?


But do you believe it?


In the case of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, God withdrew His protection and gave evil angels permission to use the Roman army to lay waste the city and its sinners. Are you suggesting this is what will happen during the 7LPs, that God will give evil angels permission to use human armies to pour out the plagues?


No, Tom, the 4 angels releasing the 4 winds is not the out pouring of the 7LPs. Instead, it is just one part of what happens during the out pouring of the plagues. Please review the quotes posted earlier on this thread.

By the way, what makes you think it would be horrifying for God to stand back and watch His children suffer while holy angels use plagues to destroy them, but it wouldn't be horrifying if evil angels did it instead?

Part of the reason for you're not getting it may have to do with the way you think of things. For example, you write that I'm going way out on a limb "insisting" that what Jesus said about Jerusalem constitutes an example of His using His enemies to punish sinners. I never even said this, let alone "insisted" on this. You said this! You asked me for an example of a principle which you framed in your words. My giving you an example is hardly my "insisting" on something.

Why not let me put things in my own words? Then if you wish to assert than I'm "insisting" on something, I'll go along.

Here's what I believe. Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of the Father. Not a partial revelation, but a complete one. All that man can know about God was revealed in and by Jesus Christ. When we look at Jesus, we see the Father.

If we wish to know what God thinks of sin, we have but to consider Jesus Christ. We can see Jesus' hatred of sin by the things He did and said, and this reveals God's feeling of sin.

If we wish to see how God thinks of sinners, and how He treats them, we have but to look at Jesus Christ. How Jesus Christ treated sinners is how God treat them.



Jesus spoke of Jerusalem while He was here in the flesh.



I don't know this. It seems to me that you believe exactly this. You believe God engulfs the wicked with fire from above and below, and that they burn in this literal fire for many hours or days. Isn't this accurate?



Force is compelling someone to do something against their will. That's not justice. Ellen White says the following regarding "force."



God does not compel anyone to do anything. The wicked's exclusion from heaven is "voluntary." That means is something they choose to do. No one would choose to be burned alive by literal fire for many hours or many days.

TE: Here's what I believe. Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of the Father. Not a partial revelation, but a complete one. All that man can know about God was revealed in and by Jesus Christ. When we look at Jesus, we see the Father.

MM: You did it again, Tom, you left out key words. The quote reads thus - "Only that which He sees fit to reveal can we comprehend of Him. Reason must acknowledge an authority superior to itself. Heart and intellect must bow to the great I AM. All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." {8T 286.1}

In other words, there are certain things about God's character and purposes that He has not seen fit to reveal to us through Jesus. The things He has not revealed are beyond our ability to comprehend right now, which is one of the reasons why He hasn't revealed them yet, and we must humbly bow before God and admit it.

Nevertheless, God has revealed all that we need to know or can know about Him, the rest we must simply accept that our brains are too dull and puny to comprehend at this time. Again, there are certain things about God, like His "strange acts", that baffle some and turns others away, things that God has not yet seen fit to explain to us. Until He does explain them to us, they must remain shrouded in darkness, mysteries we may not understand until we are dwelling safely in the New Earth.

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TE: Jesus spoke of Jerusalem while He was here in the flesh.

MM: Does that satisfy you? Do you count it as revealing the fact God sometimes uses His enemies to punish impenitent sinners? If you're willing to accept talking about something that will happen in the future as a demonstration of what God is like, then what about the following passages? Do they teach God will use literal fire to punish and destroy impenitent sinners at the end of time? Do they also prove God has used literal fire in the past to punish and destroy impenitent sinners?

Matthew
3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew
5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew
13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

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TE: OTOH, there are no examples of Jesus acting in according with your idea that God uses force to achieve His means, or that He tortures and kills though who do not do what He tells them to.

MM: As you know, neither do I believe such a thing.

TE: I don't know this. It seems to me that you believe exactly this. You believe God engulfs the wicked with fire from above and below, and that they burn in this literal fire for many hours or days. Isn't this accurate?

MM: Tom, here's what you said - God uses force and torture to achieve His means. I do not believe this. See below.

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TE: Force is compelling someone to do something against their will. That's not justice.

MM: I agree. But are you assuming God executes justice to force sinners to comply with His will, to coerce them to obey His law? If so, then I totally disagree. God executes impenitent sinners because they have committed the unpardonable sin - not in order to force them to obey.

There is no hope for them, no hope they will ever accept Jesus as their personal Savior. So, in accordance with the just and loving demands of law and justice, He punishes them in duration and in proportion to their sinfulness. “By His word God has bound Himself to execute the penalty of the law on all transgressors.” (6BC 1095) Consider the following insights:

PP 409
In our day there are many who reject the creation Sabbath as a Jewish institution and urge that if it is to be kept, the penalty of death must be inflicted for its violation; but we see that blasphemy received the same punishment as did Sabbathbreaking. Shall we therefore conclude that the third commandment also is to be set aside as applicable only to the Jews? Yet the argument drawn from the death penalty applies to the third, the fifth, and indeed to nearly all the ten precepts, equally with the fourth. Though God may not now punish the transgression of His law with temporal penalties, yet His word declares that the wages of sin is death; and in the final execution of the judgment it will be found that death is the portion of those who violate His sacred precepts. {PP 409.2}

HP 153
Transgression is disobedience to the commands of God. Had these commands always been obeyed, there would have been no sin. The penalty of transgression is always death. Christ averted the immediate execution of the death sentence by giving His life for man. . . . Justice requires that men shall have light, and it also requires that he who refuses to walk in the Heaven-given light, the giving of which cost the death of the Son of God, must receive punishment. It is a principle of justice that the guilt of the sinner shall be proportionate to the knowledge given, but not used, or used in a wrong way. {HP 153.3}

Tom, please address #99394 (above). Thank you.

My point is that my characterization of what you believe looks to me to be accurate. You believe God takes action against the wicket which causes them to be set on fire and to remain on fire for many hours or days. I say "set on fire" because earlier you spoke of them being in flames. Indeed, in your way of seeing things, how could they not be in flames? Especially the fire from above would have now way to keep the wicked suffering, unless you believe it hovers over them during all this time.



I believe the angels pouring out the 7 plagues is speaking of the same thing as the 4 angels holding back the winds of strife. The holy angels release their protection against the action of the evil angels, so it is they who are pouring out the last plagues.



No. The similarity is that God withdraws His protection. I think what will happen is similar to what happened to Job.



I believe the releasing of the winds of strife coves all the destruction that follows. I also believe the 14 MR 3 statement, regarding the judgments of God "following in this way" is applicable to the final plagues.

I don't see how the following paragraph can be misunderstood:



It talks about how God withdraws, and how Satan plunges the inhabitants of earth into one great, final trouble. It's clear what's happening.

It is sin/Satan that causes destruction, suffering and misery, not God.



It is horrifying for God to see His loved ones destroyed. If God were behind the destruction, it would be horrifying for us, and the rest of the universe.